Covenant Development

[Arthur]

@MTKnife

I would assume maybe 5 or 6 magi, and appropriate mundanes. I think it would be more interesting if it was experienced magi, rather than a bunch of newbies. The traces....Well, I was assuming that most of the buildings (or caves, or whatever) would be intact enough that we could reinhabit the labs fairly easily by installing new equipment. Beyond that, exactly what things look like now depends on what happened, I haven't decided on that. Are you going to do that, or am I? At the very least, the cause of the covenant's fall should be ambiguous.

Condition of the buildings would depend on how long since the covenant was abandoned/destroyed. So how long ago would that have been?

I'd figure at least 15 years (3 tribunal meetings). They skip sending a representative at a first meeting. By the second meeting, tribunal gets result of investigation at the second meeting but doesn't move in case one of the members survived and reappears, at the third meeting the covenant is declared dissolved.

From that point forward, the new covenant can be formed. It would take a couple of years before the resources (lab equipment, books, grogs/specialists/covenfolk) can be gathered and made ready for transportation.

I was seeing maybe as a smaller covenant made up of 3 or 4 mid-level Seekers trying to prove themselves (or absorbed by their quest). They didn't make many friend in the Tribunal, so not much energy was put in trying to discover exactly what happened. Some information was gathered from the Redcaps and the investigating Quaesitor, but it was inconclusive as to what happened to all of them.

[Arya]

@Arthur

If you don't have a preference, simply say so. I'd like at least a few more answers before I go forward with one site or the other. This is a troupe-style saga, so let's hear it up!

No preference, because I know zilch about the area.

[MTKnife]

@Arthur

Condition of the buildings would depend on how long since the covenant was abandoned/destroyed. So how long ago would that have been?

I'd figure at least 15 years (3 tribunal meetings). They skip sending a representative at a first meeting. By the second meeting, tribunal gets result of investigation at the second meeting but doesn't move in case one of the members survived and reappears, at the third meeting the covenant is declared dissolved.

Tribunals are every 7 years--if that matters for your purposes--though I guess you could have 3 of them in a 14-year span, yes.

From that point forward, the new covenant can be formed. It would take a couple of years before the resources (lab equipment, books, grogs/specialists/covenfolk) can be gathered and made ready for transportation.

We can assume this has been in the planning stages for a while, if you like, but if the labs will mostly be created by a ritual spell, that'll simplify things enormously. However, the last Tribunal date was 1221, which means that, either it took a long time to arrange, or it wasn't a Tribunal that organized the new covenant.

I was seeing maybe as a smaller covenant made up of 3 or 4 mid-level Seekers trying to prove themselves (or absorbed by their quest). They didn't make many friend in the Tribunal, so not much energy was put in trying to discover exactly what happened. Some information was gathered from the Redcaps and the investigating Quaesitor, but it was inconclusive as to what happened to all of them.

OK, that's fine.

Scott

[MTKnife]

@Arthur

@Arthur

Do you prefer Berezan Island or the ruins of Tanais?

I'm waiting to hear from all the troupe.

Ok I received the following responses up to now:

• Scott (MTKnife): Seemed to prefer further east, so I would guess Tanais.
• Salutor: Slight preference for Tanais
• callen: No preference

I've had no response from the others. As far as I could tell by going through the messages, I'm missing answers from Arya, JeanMichelle, Flux, Ivan (Domazhir Slipoi), wardenj, Wits.

If you don't have a preference, simply say so. I'd like at least a few more answers before I go forward with one site or the other. This is a troupe-style saga, so let's hear it up!

OK, a couple of stupid ideas: I was wondering if we could have something that looks Berezan, but in a regio near Tanais. Another possibility is the Cimmerian Bosporus, the modern-day Kerch strait--apparently in ancient times what's now the Taman peninsula was a bunch of islands, some with cities on them.

Scott

[JeanMichelle]

I said early on that I like the island.

But: I can live with the other one.

[MTKnife]

OK, here's another interesting possibility: the Greek colony of Phanagoria lay on an island that's now the western end of the Taman Peninsula, in the Kerch Strait. By the 13th century, it may have been in ruins (and most of the town is under water today), and though it was no longer an island even then, the area is home to dozens of mud volcanoes.

Scott

[Wits]

I like the idea of putting the covenant on an island for some reason. That said, I find all the alternatives good. Should I rank them, I would say 1) Phanagoria, 2) Berezan 3) Tanais.

[Arthur]

@MTKnife

OK, here's another interesting possibility: the Greek colony of Phanagoria lay on an island that's now the western end of the Taman Peninsula, in the Kerch Strait. By the 13th century, it may have been in ruins (and most of the town is under water today), and though it was no longer an island even then, the area is home to dozens of mud volcanoes.

Call me lazy, but I'd rather not research a third site. I've already spent over 10 hours for the other 2 -- researching history, myths, local fauna, mundane activities, and finally digging up reasons for there to be an aura there.

For some reason, doing this for a third site is unappealing.

Although I previously pushed for Berezan, I think I've changed my mind. (That's what happens when I start digging about another site.)

I've integrated some interesting elements into the Mythic Tanais that include an island similar to Berezan. It's also easy to get a nearby forest (for the birds and the wolf) and provides direct access to the mainland. It also offers more possibilities for exploration, as it sits at the perceived frontier between Europe and Asia. Finally, it's close enough to a mundane city (Azov, then called Azaq) while still isolated enough (on the other side of the delta, about 12 miles away) that mundanes shouldn't be a constant problem (just an occasional one). The city can provide resources (boats for going upriver, guides, artisans, supplies) for explorers, while the covenant can handle the magical resources. There is also a possibility of some Venitian and Genoese merchants doing business there (fudging the dates just slightly on that one).

So unless someone expresses strong objections, I'll proceed with Tanais.

[Wits]

Sounds good to me.

[MTKnife]

@Arthur

I've integrated some interesting elements into the Mythic Tanais that include an island similar to Berezan. It's also easy to get a nearby forest (for the birds and the wolf) and provides direct access to the mainland. It also offers more possibilities for exploration, as it sits at the perceived frontier between Europe and Asia. Finally, it's close enough to a mundane city (Azov, then called Azaq) while still isolated enough (on the other side of the delta, about 12 miles away) that mundanes shouldn't be a constant problem (just an occasional one). The city can provide resources (boats for going upriver, guides, artisans, supplies) for explorers, while the covenant can handle the magical resources. There is also a possibility of some Venitian and Genoese merchants doing business there (fudging the dates just slightly on that one).

So unless someone expresses strong objections, I'll proceed with Tanais.

So what prompted the change of heart?

Are you basing that island on the reports of such an island by two ancient authors (Ptolemy being one, as I recall)? The island they were referring to was apparently actually the one I was talking about, in Cimmerrian Bosporus.

Scott

[Arthur]

@MTKnife

So what prompted the change of heart?

Are you basing that island on the reports of such an island by two ancient authors (Ptolemy being one, as I recall)? The island they were referring to was apparently actually the one I was talking about, in Cimmerrian Bosporus.

Want changed my mind was mainly the time spend looking for an alternative that would better satisfy the need of a saga for exploring unknown territory than Berezan did. The specific myths about Tanais also helped me develop a reason why a magical aura would have developped there. The site is also more open, giving me more leeway to develop something both complex and credible.

The island is not based on anything from ancient reports, it's an extrapolation on Greek mythology. I could explain everything right now, or I could keep it a surprise for when the magi actually show up to establish themselves... There will be in-character reports about the covenant (from Redcaps who visited and from the investigation when the covenant disappeared), but otherwise, having the magi discover the site might be more... interesting.

This would be before Gorianus shows up, so I'd be free to SG the arrival at the site. But if you'd prefer something more open, just let me know and I'll give everyone details.

[MTKnife]

@Arthur

This would be before Gorianus shows up, so I'd be free to SG the arrival at the site. But if you'd prefer something more open, just let me know and I'll give everyone details.

You can SG it if you want. Are we talking about the island as the actual covenant site? How much does the aura extend? And before I design a lab, what will we have in the way of buildings and caves?

Scott

[Arthur]

@MTKnife

@Arthur

I'd figure at least 15 years (3 tribunal meetings). They skip sending a representative at a first meeting. By the second meeting, tribunal gets result of investigation at the second meeting but doesn't move in case one of the members survived and reappears, at the third meeting the covenant is declared dissolved.

Tribunals are every 7 years--if that matters for your purposes--though I guess you could have 3 of them in a 14-year span, yes.

I know. That's why I said that it would be at least 15 years before the Tribunal would officially declare the covenant dissolved.

With the last Tribunal meeting being in 1221, that means it's been between 19 and 26 years since the destruction of the covenant.

@MTKnife

You can SG it if you want. Are we talking about the island as the actual covenant site? How much does the aura extend? And before I design a lab, what will we have in the way of buildings and caves?

No, the island is not the actual covenant site, although some labs may be installed there eventually. The magi won't know about the island right away, as it is hidden from mundane sight.

If you look at the ruins on Google Maps here, you can see that the ruins are organized on a square area that seems slightly elevated from the surrounding terrain. All of that area has a +3 magical aura.

There are a number of buildings that will already be there (grog barracks, stables, seperate houses for 4 magi including space for a lab, a dozen or so smaller houses for covenfolk and specialists). Those buildings are in disrepair, since they've been abandonned for 20-ish years. There is plenty of space there to build more. Amongst the ruins, there is the entrance to a network of caves where the aura is stronger. Some labs can be set up in those caves also, although it seems nothing of the sort had been done originally.

Looking at this larger map of the area, you can see Tanais at the center top and Azov at the bottom on the other side of the delta. The magical aura weakens as it extends from the covenant. Upland it is +2 for about 1 mile north and 2 miles west and east. South into the delta, it is much larger, with most of the delta covered by a +1 magical aura.

The closest village are on each side of the covenant about 5 miles west (what is identified as Morskoy Chulek on the map). That's where the large ship(s) bringing the magi can land, as the channel into the delta is too narrow and shallow for large ships. Fishing boats and barges can navigate it, though. There is also another village to the east about 7 miles away (what is identified as Kalinin on the map). Azov is the big city, on the other side of the delta. A lot of trade goes through there.

The Sea of Azov ices over during the winter, so travel by ship becomes impossible. Crossing the delta over the ice is dangerous but not impossible, as the thickness varies a lot. Water level is also quite high during spring, making navigation more dangerous but certainly possible.

[Salutor]

@Arthur

@MTKnife

You can SG it if you want. Are we talking about the island as the actual covenant site? How much does the aura extend? And before I design a lab, what will we have in the way of buildings and caves?

No, the island is not the actual covenant site, although some labs may be installed there eventually. The magi won't know about the island right away, as it is hidden from mundane sight.

If you look at the ruins on Google Maps here, you can see that the ruins are organized on a square area that seems slightly elevated from the surrounding terrain. All of that area has a +3 magical aura.

There are a number of buildings that will already be there (grog barracks, stables, seperate houses for 4 magi including space for a lab, a dozen or so smaller houses for covenfolk and specialists). Those buildings are in disrepair, since they've been abandonned for 20-ish years. There is plenty of space there to build more. Amongst the ruins, there is the entrance to a network of caves where the aura is stronger. Some labs can be set up in those caves also, although it seems nothing of the sort had been done originally.

Looking at this larger map of the area, you can see Tanais at the center top and Azov at the bottom on the other side of the delta. The magical aura weakens as it extends from the covenant. Upland it is +2 for about 1 mile north and 2 miles west and east. South into the delta, it is much larger, with most of the delta covered by a +1 magical aura.

The closest village are on each side of the covenant about 5 miles west (what is identified as Morskoy Chulek on the map). That's where the large ship(s) bringing the magi can land, as the channel into the delta is too narrow and shallow for large ships. Fishing boats and barges can navigate it, though. There is also another village to the east about 7 miles away (what is identified as Kalinin on the map). Azov is the big city, on the other side of the delta. A lot of trade goes through there.

The Sea of Azov ices over during the winter, so travel by ship becomes impossible. Crossing the delta over the ice is dangerous but not impossible, as the thickness varies a lot. Water level is also quite high during spring, making navigation more dangerous but certainly possible.

That looks great, thank-you.

[MTKnife]

@Arthur

@MTKnife

@Arthur

I'd figure at least 15 years (3 tribunal meetings). They skip sending a representative at a first meeting. By the second meeting, tribunal gets result of investigation at the second meeting but doesn't move in case one of the members survived and reappears, at the third meeting the covenant is declared dissolved.

Tribunals are every 7 years--if that matters for your purposes--though I guess you could have 3 of them in a 14-year span, yes.

I know. That's why I said that it would be at least 15 years before the Tribunal would officially declare the covenant dissolved.

With the last Tribunal meeting being in 1221, that means it's been between 19 and 26 years since the destruction of the covenant.

OK.

@MTKnife

You can SG it if you want. Are we talking about the island as the actual covenant site? How much does the aura extend? And before I design a lab, what will we have in the way of buildings and caves?

No, the island is not the actual covenant site, although some labs may be installed there eventually. The magi won't know about the island right away, as it is hidden from mundane sight.

Pity--I liked the island idea. Remember that we've got a few characters with Second Sight, who might have a good chance of seeing into a regio.

If you look at the ruins on Google Maps here, you can see that the ruins are organized on a square area that seems slightly elevated from the surrounding terrain. All of that area has a +3 magical aura.

I think we talked about having an aura of +5--in this part of the world, it ought to be easy enough to find one. Maybe the caves take care of that, though.

There are a number of buildings that will already be there (grog barracks, stables, seperate houses for 4 magi including space for a lab, a dozen or so smaller houses for covenfolk and specialists). Those buildings are in disrepair, since they've been abandonned for 20-ish years. There is plenty of space there to build more. Amongst the ruins, there is the entrance to a network of caves where the aura is stronger. Some labs can be set up in those caves also, although it seems nothing of the sort had been done originally.

Why not, if they've got a higher aura? It's hard to believe any labs would be set up on top when there's a higher aura down below.

Looking at this larger map of the area, you can see Tanais at the center top and Azov at the bottom on the other side of the delta. The magical aura weakens as it extends from the covenant. Upland it is +2 for about 1 mile north and 2 miles west and east. South into the delta, it is much larger, with most of the delta covered by a +1 magical aura.

The closest village are on each side of the covenant about 5 miles west (what is identified as Morskoy Chulek on the map). That's where the large ship(s) bringing the magi can land, as the channel into the delta is too narrow and shallow for large ships. Fishing boats and barges can navigate it, though. There is also another village to the east about 7 miles away (what is identified as Kalinin on the map). Azov is the big city, on the other side of the delta. A lot of trade goes through there.

The Sea of Azov ices over during the winter, so travel by ship becomes impossible. Crossing the delta over the ice is dangerous but not impossible, as the thickness varies a lot. Water level is also quite high during spring, making navigation more dangerous but certainly possible.

Was the channel so shallow even in the middle ages?

Scott

[Salutor]

@JeanMichelle

Get us mastery texts with the rituals. An unmastered ritual is suicide.

Still working on the library. A quick question on this, though - as I understand it, the main benefit of mastery of a ritual is usually to remove the risk of botching rather than to gain access to spell mastery abilities. Why are lab texts so important, then, given that you can gain enough xp in one season to reach mastery 1 even without them?

[Arthur]

@MTKnife

I think we talked about having an aura of +5--in this part of the world, it ought to be easy enough to find one. Maybe the caves take care of that, though.

It doesn, but with a twist. (Yes, I have a twisted mind.)

Why not, if they've got a higher aura? It's hard to believe any labs would be set up on top when there's a higher aura down below.

The caves had not been discovered when the first covenant was set up. They were discovered not long before the covenant was destroyed.

Or maybe there's another reason that I want the magi to discover for themselves...

Was the channel so shallow even in the middle ages?

Yes. The channel right in front of Tanais silting up was one of the reasons why later settlements were established on the other side of the delta. It's not shallow everywhere, and might be navigable up to the covenant's shore, but most ship's captain will not take the risk of running aground.

[MTKnife]

@Arthur

@MTKnife

I think we talked about having an aura of +5--in this part of the world, it ought to be easy enough to find one. Maybe the caves take care of that, though.

It doesn, but with a twist. (Yes, I have a twisted mind.)

Why not, if they've got a higher aura? It's hard to believe any labs would be set up on top when there's a higher aura down below.

The caves had not been discovered when the first covenant was set up. They were discovered not long before the covenant was destroyed.

Or maybe there's another reason that I want the magi to discover for themselves...

OK, then that still leaves the difficulty of explaining why the first covenant set up in a +3 aura, given all the wilderness (and, doubtless, accompanying high auras) around here. Maybe the main area is +5, and there are even higher areas below? We can buy that with covenant Boons, can't we?

Scott

[callen]

@Salutor

Still working on the library. A quick question on this, though - as I understand it, the main benefit of mastery of a ritual is usually to remove the risk of botching rather than to gain access to spell mastery abilities. Why are lab texts so important, then, given that you can gain enough xp in one season to reach mastery 1 even without them?

Yes, you are correct. Getting past Mastery 1 is fairly useless with rituals. Most of the benefits from Spell Mastery don't apply to most rituals. And Mastery 1 is easy to reach. You probably pick up 4 points in a season of practice (The boost to 5 is for repeatedly casting something, which isn't quite what you want to do.), but you ought to be able to put exposure to it when creating the spell.

Lab texts are really important. Spell Mastery books are only important for the spells in which you want lots of mastery, such as DEO.

Chris

[MTKnife]

@callen

@Salutor

Still working on the library. A quick question on this, though - as I understand it, the main benefit of mastery of a ritual is usually to remove the risk of botching rather than to gain access to spell mastery abilities. Why are lab texts so important, then, given that you can gain enough xp in one season to reach mastery 1 even without them?

Yes, you are correct. Getting past Mastery 1 is fairly useless with rituals. Most of the benefits from Spell Mastery don't apply to most rituals. And Mastery 1 is easy to reach. You probably pick up 4 points in a season of practice (The boost to 5 is for repeatedly casting something, which isn't quite what you want to do.), but you ought to be able to put exposure to it when creating the spell.

Lab texts are really important. Spell Mastery books are only important for the spells in which you want lots of mastery, such as DEO.

I don't think you can Practice a Mastery ability without casting the spell. With a Formulaic, that's no problem, since you can always cast it under non-stress conditions, but I believe that with a Ritual (which is always a stress die since it involves vis), if you want to be safe, you're going to need to study it from a book.

Scott