After a while a magus will tire of casting spells constantly and will want to invest that into a device or perhaps purchase said device. That's certainly true, but we are young and upstart and perhaps see the folly of not relying on everything we saw our parentes rely on. Or maybe we covet those creature comforts. I'm not saying your build points are "wrong." I am saying that from a character perspective, I can see those bells being disappointing. I can envision the scenario where Wido promises he has something great to give, and when it's unveiled, it's disappointing to many. Couple that with what I'm going to say below after the quotation.
It's realistic, depending on what your character is like. For example, the books he brings, are they sufficient to complete the research he needs to do? Does he need more books? How soon? Where are they coming from? What's the cost? See where I'm coming from?
As for covenant service and vis distribution - I think Wido prefers having a season a year for covenant service that each member basically can choose themselves. If someone would build a item that improves covenant somehow and others agree it does make sense then one should just do that. He thinks that seasons of service should be possible to "store" if there is a need for longer continuous projects so he could for example improve covenant 2 years and then not have to worry about service for next 6 years. If a project is related to covenant he thinks that covenant should pay for vis costs if quorum of a council of a covenant agrees to it. Should magus not be able to complete season of work in time his vis grant should be witheld until such season of work has been completed. Should magus not complete season of service for 7 years in a row council should have right to vote about removing magus from a covenant membership unless there is a force majeure reason for not being able to be present. Should a magus lose time in service of covenant that time should be considered as his covenant service unless it was lost due irresponsible carelessness (for example protecting covenants interest by negotiating with faeries and being trapped in faerie for 7 years should be considered service to the covenant unless there is a good reason as seen by the council to believe it was due irresponsible carelessness).
Providing self written books without the Cow and Calf oath to a library of the covenant should be considered a service to the covenant of at least one season.
Providing new vis sources to the covenant should be considered a service that council of a covenant can value with seasons of service or in an another appropriate way that council so chooses.
He thinks that members should have a vis grant and that council could vote for extra grants for projects that deemed to be in interest of all magi concerned. Vis grant should be in type of vis that magus needs and that is possible for covenant to provide - it should be noted that it is in interest of a covenant to secure trade relations with other covenants to make sure interest of magi are met by production and trade of vis. Amount of vis grant should be that is possible for covenant to provide easily and that reflects relative values of different types of vis by first means of production and then by trade.
Wido thinks that covenant should provide a secure place for magi and as such provide an Aegis of a Hearth of sufficient power before providing vis for projects of different magi. Should magi choose to live outside Aegis it is their choice, but they should have a place for a laboratory within Aegis and they should not be refunded for their preference for life outside covenants Aegis.
Wido would prefer democratic covenant that allows Founding magi to bascially make decision for covenant without consulting others, but having to answer to council of covenant for those decisions. It is better that magi are free and trusted so let is be that they do not ask for permission but rather forgiveness (should that be necessary) unless it is matter of Oath of Order of Hermes when of course that previous Oath supercedes covenants preferences.
Magi should only belong to single covenant lest their interest be in conflict.
Essentially Wido prefers "Live and let live" approach to covenant politics as he obviously wants a head start to his research.
I do see where you are coming from, but I do think that you assume too much that magi are able to compare how much else magus could have brought to the covenant with those build points. Of course magi are able to compare what each magus has brought, but that is not trivial either - Wido might not have had choice between 14 pawns of vis a year and that item and those creature comforts are very nice indeed.
Build points do make it trivial to have say 8 specialists of great skill (8*8bps) and enough vis to provide them all with longevity (20 pawns of corpus a year). In a way it is easy to see why longevity is a good way to attract craft masters of great skill that are slowly starting to age, but it is still quite a stretch to see it as likely. Gift makes promises of extra decades of life to sound treacherous and damning.
About those creature comforts - they are not only for magi, but to covenfolk too - that is why there are those unlimited uses in those items. It makes leaving covenant a lot harsher as you leave your warm home and your clothes stop staying warm after few weeks. You realise why your magical master were actually rather nice and helps to realise what they've done for you. It is their might that keeps you warm and that is why you'll do your admittedly small part in service to the covenant. And it certainly is true! Magi can take in those hated by outsiders, give them meaning in their life and make that life very nice.
Overall I do not know what build points should be used to. If I'd go for optimization route I would indeed make a Verditius magus and start crafting items of great usefulness immediately. It just seems one of the most obvious choices for long term campaign - first few years making those comfort trinkets and other little additions to covenant would pay off handsomely very soon. An another simulation that might be interesting to run would be playing a Tytalus or Jerbiton with Gentle Gift and interest (and talent!) in Intrigue - building those webs of power among covenfolk, mundanes and magi. Of course combining those two would not be impossible - Verditius with interest in intrigue/Leadership could be very formidable in his own way. Mirror with Intangible tunnel, Posing the Silent question and Creo Mentem (for feelings of Gaudium and Terror at least) would be more or less nice beginning of a large and loyal intrigue network. How high could loyalty in a covenant go if it had dedicated crafter of intrigue making it go higher? Why should it top at measley 6? Would they hold a yet another feast in your honor if it reached 9? Now that I think of it that would be rather fun too ^.^
For practical purposes - I am not sure what Wido needs. Varied steady source of vis and probably some books in magic theory, but books are certainly expensive in build points. Intelligent company and basic needs taken care of. Safety. Safety is hard to provide with build points. Varied vis sources I did have - but that was problematic as they were too varied. Maybe I'll make an another attempt with few more specialist (bookbinders, etc) thrown in and I'll remove that magic item and chamberlain.
Here's an idea, one one that rewards role play or, maybe more correctly stated here, creative writing...don't use build points for specialists.
Design them from the ground up, make them more complete than stats of their most useful numbers?
The bookbinder is a lush, sometimes we get books that the pages are upside down...
The scribe is a spy, a failed apprentice who we've inadvertently hired. His Scribing and Latin are high enough that he copies out our texts...
The Illuminator, she's crazy, in the way that genius and brilliant people can be.
Learning from vis is a bad deal. There's a reason why it doesn't start until art scores get to ~20. And magi of an old age will devour tractatus written on their favored Arts.
See this chart to see how bad a deal it is. If it's all you have, then it's all you have, but it shouldn't be a first choice. It's incredibly risky.
It's possible no one else will bring an item and will make up in books. I'm just seeing a potential character conflict point. Sure, it's a great item it does a lot of stuff, but it's like Jack's magic beans. I think the items are great, my character may not. And then it's possible that no one ever uses it. Let's not forget warping. If we're in a room that's constantly heated by magic...there's warping happening there. If we have to question our grogs with the device always present, they may begin to figure it out. It might become a problem.
Study from Books >> Study from Vis
...Which probably explains why every covenant I've ever been in (in this edition) have begun cluttering up with books quite fast.
Tellus - concerning summae I agree, but for example tractatii are quite expensive compared to vis sources. Quality 10 tractatus compares very badly to vis source of 2 vis a year. Writing tractatii makes books relatively efficient and gives a very good excuse to imagine what character is actually studying about while writing his/her books.
Studying from vis has problem of possible botches, but safer lab helps a lot with that. Variable quality does not matter that much nor chance for exploding die. So studying from vis is not that bad - especially if aura is high. With aura of 6 it is extremely hard for tractatii to compete with studying arts from vis - quality 11 tractatii have to be acquired by writing or by trade and both do take some time. In aura of 3 I think tractatii and studying from vis compare pretty well to each other.
Writing does not suffer from botches, but has problem of limited chance to write about anything. There are only so many tractatii magus can write about a subject so book circle has to grow in size to be able to sustain improving arts and skills of participants. It does sound like it would be rather normal for covenants to trade their tractatus collections once in a while if they trust other covenants - that would allow for more reading after common summae have been depleted.
I think that build points just make vis and vis sources very cheap compared to everything, but that normally campaigns won't have that much vis available to magi. Tractatii are probably a lot cheaper than vis sources in actualy game play - an another one you have to probably risk life and limb to acquire and an another is probably possible to acquire by sending letters and holding meetings - maybe writing one yourself, but not necessarily.
Hmm, getting sideways promotions make for extra work at work, but Sunday is free still
Hippocrates will be bringing with him the following:
The Beast Within - Summae on Animal - L15, Q11 - 26 Points
The Fundaments of Creation - Summae on Creo - L20, Q11 - 31 Points
The Human Body - Summae on Corpus - L20, Q11 - 31 Points
Fundamental Advances in Magic - Summae on Magic Theory - L8, Q11 - 35 Points
Transcribed Lab-texts:
The Bed of Recovery (Lvl 34, enchanment that gives +18 on recovery rolls to the one using it at sunrise and sunset.) - 7 points.
Incantation of the Body Made Whole (CrCo 40) - 8 points.
Body of the Titans (CrCo 50, +1 Strength, max +3) - 10 points.
Speed of the Quicklings (CrCo 50, +1 Qik, max +3) - 10 points.
Dexterity of the Najades (CrCo 50, +1 Dex, max +3) - 10 points.
Expert:
Michel(le) - the woman philosopher pretending to be a man to be allowed to learn and teach. Teaching + Com 5, Artes liberales 5, Philosophiae 5. - 10 points.
Personal resources:
Source of Corpus vis (probably a by-product of his familiar) 5 pawns/year - 25 points.
Seven League Stride (ReCo 30) - 6 points
The Leap of Homecoming (ReCo 35) - 7 Points
Inner Beauty on the Outside (CrMe 50, +1 Prescence max +3) - 10 points.
I think that will be 175 + 50 points, but with a bit less kept personal.
One thing we should probably discuss is how cooperative vs competitive we will play the Order. My character concept is relying on a rather cooperative Order since a specialist needs a market to function properly.
So how do we view book exchange? I'm used to (and like) that mediocre/vanity summae can be swapped rather easily (provided you supply the transcriber/copier).
Tractati is considered the bargain coin of the Order and you can always get equal for equal in trade. In addition (high quality) tractati is the preferred payment if you want something from grown up magi (unless you are desperate and/or otherwise willing to pay by "outstanding favour").
Is this how others see our Order as well: A community where cooperation and trade is rather common and use of specialists (ie for longevity and building and magic items) is at least not rare (in fot completely widespread)?
I think I had mentioned somewhere, but can't find it now that I didn't want the personal bps to be used for a source. There is a virtue that does that.
I'm fine with a cooperative Order. A LR specialist probably has competition, though.
Agreed on that, Jonathan. It just were the last ones into the list
New set of private resources:
Body of the Titans (CrCo 50, +1 Strength, max +3) - 10 points.
Speed of the Quicklings (CrCo 50, +1 Qik, max +3) - 10 points.
Dexterity of the Najades (CrCo 50, +1 Dex, max +3) - 10 points.
Inner Beauty on the Outside (CrMe 50, +1 Prescence max +3) - 10 points.
The Leap of Homecoming (ReCo 35) - 7 Points
That was already my plan. Note that I've already have some good ideas for the scribe/translator I listed for my build points.
Should we start a thread for the the stats of the covenfolk and grogs? First message should be an index with links to the individual posts (the experts), IMHO, to be updated as we add them. Each player can then update the stats of their specialists/grogs as they evolve.
My character concept takes into account an Order that in the open looks cooperative, but with many underlying political currents that makes that cooperation just a surface thing. So the market is there, but the most valuable commodities "just happen" to be available only to those with the right connections.
Book exchange is probably fairly open for ordinary (up to mid-quality/mid-level) books. There's probably a limited supply of them, because each magus can only write a limited number of them and not all of them actually do. If we are in the Rhine, we have to remember that Durenmar is close by and has a very large library accessible to those willing to pay for it. That actually brings down the value of the books we own, since theirs will always be better. So anything we have in the library will probably considered to have little value to other covenants. Most, if not all, of the tractati we start with would probably be common texts that are useless to older magi -- we'll need to scribe something new in order to have something tradeable to any but the youngest magi.
To me, the Order is na bunch of powerful, cranky eccentrics that each have their own agendas. They are interested in their own objectives and care little about the common good. They take on airs and pretend to have lofty goals, but this is mostly empty posturing. Trade is there because it lets them get what they want/need without having to bother learning things they are not interested in. But I wouldn't trust most of them any farther than I can teleport them. My character is an innocent, though, who is easily manipulated into believing that the surface is true (he'll learn better in time).
Considering that the magi will have prepared for the last few years for the creation of the covenant, as well as the number of magi at the covenant, I think that setting aside 1 season every 2 years for covenant services would be enough. With 7 magi, that means each there would be one magus performing covenant service just about every season. Or possibly establish a “duty magus” every season (meaning 1 in 7 seasons is for covenant services).
With many of the magi focusing on their research, I doubt any will want to spend more time performing covenant services than that. Petronius would find having to spend 25% of his time on covenant services excessive.
Agreed, though the covenant should maintain a vis reserve for some types of vis, such as Vim (for the Aegis) and either Creo or Corpus (for emergency healing) for example.
Unless the magus doing so provides the covenant with a reasonable advantage, such as securing a regular source of income, covenfolk, vis, lab equipment? That would be up to the council to decide whether those services (which do not necessarily require a whole season but might require living in town) deserve an additional grant or not. Petronius would be sensitive to arguments going that way.
Within that freedom, covenant members should at least keep others within the covenant informed of anything that might touch upon common resources and safety. So a magus who wants to experiment on the aura might be forbidden to do so on the covenant’s main aura, but allowed to do it on a smaller aura some distance away (like the caves at Laacher Lake).
I agree on the "one season per 2 years" stand. It should be enough.
Have we agreed on the location? I definitely would like to be out of the town proper, and have a sanctum with a lab that could be refined to increase comfort and health. The idea of a common lab is still a good one, but less so now that we're 7 magi who would like to use it. With that little access enhancing the lab is less useful since you probably only get to use it every second year...
I don't think we landed or agreed on how to handle a spread out location either. Do we still want that? Should "someone" use some points on a (big) Vim-source and we supply the "satellites" with a lvl 10 Aegis (that would keep most nuisances out) and a better one on the central location? Should we all learn Wizards Communion, and on what level?
I suggest a classic "covenant in a manor" on a hill outside Koblenz where there is room for a sanctum and a up to +3 size lab for each magus. The hill (and the aura) would give the area good, fresh air that together with the well built around a natural spring provides a Health Feature. Then I suggest we support some (not too many, I hope) satellites for the magi who have a good reason to have their sanctum outside the manor. It would be helpful if the satellite magi's players would use some of their build points to supply some vim-vis, I think.
Hippocrates would like his sanctum to be on the first floor of the manor house, if possible (I think that is all that is needed to get the "elevated" virtue in the lab).
We talked about being rather wealthy (secondary income). Does that mean each magus can install (some) expensive virtues in his lab? How much upkeep is acceptable for each magus? I suggest 10 mythic pounds. We are rich (I think) and extensive supplies, special collections and the like are a good way to boost our research.
I agree that we need to settle on a location for the covenant. Here's what I propose. Much of it is based on historical elements weaved together.
The main site of the covenant is located in the forest south of Koblenz. The ruins of a temple to Mercury and Rosmerta were found in that forest, 5 miles south of the city. There are numerous other Roman ruins throughout of the forest (villas and farms), but the locals avoid them because of ghosts and many strange phenomena that occur within the forest (some of this is just rumours, while others are related to the denizens of the small magic auras scattered within the forest). The area around the temple (about 100 paces around it) has a magical aura of 2 (note: can be adjusted to a higher value, but this seemed to make sense). In the center of the ruins is a statue (or a relief) of the god and goddess. Close to the relief the magical aura is stronger (note: exact area to be defined but I suggest only big enough for a large lab if we go with the shared lab; exact strength to be determined but I suggest 4; the aura may have initially been 3 but was raised by restoring the ritual offerings to the god and goddess, as per the Flickering Aura hook in Covenants). As this is the main site, this site would certainly be protected by an Aegis.
Other small auras exist in the forest (max strength of 2). One of the stronger ones (aura 2) is the ruins of a small villa overlooking the Rhine gorge just 1 mile northeast of the main site (thus closer to Koblenz). (Note: this would satisfy the Elevated lab virtue from Covenants.) This site's aura is just large enough for a few labs (note: I suggest up to 3 regular-sized labs in area; big enough to be covered by a secondary Aegis if the others agree; in-character rationale might be that a very valuable vis source (Corpus for the number of slaves who died here?) is there so the Aegis protects it as well as the labs).
Can we agree on that as a base? We can add other secondary sites (lacuna or small magical aura in Koblenz proper, the caves at Laacher Lake, etc.) as we go along?
Wanted to touch on this spell specifically. We're playing that Leap, or any other ReCo teleportation effect, requires casting requisites of the forms on your person or you're holding if you want to carry it with you. It ties in with Arthur's concept for his character and where he wants to push original research. Further, I've found that without requisites, it's far too easy to move around. So casters of this spell will tend to have high rego scores so they can bypass most of the requisite requirements. Some examples of requisites necessary are animal, herbam and terram, which would cover clothing and arms/armor depending on the character. Further requisites might include aquam for the contents of that waterskin, and vim, you did want to take vis with you, didn't you? It then becomes conceivable, that because of the aura you can Leap out of the covenant, but can't quite leap back, or at least maybe you leap back naked, or without some of the items you'd taken with you...
So, I'm not against it, it's just going to have a high hurdle for casting it successfully...
