Creating species and rocks and animals, oh my!

[Portianitor]

I am certain this has been discussed on this very forums at least twice, and yet I cannot find either post.

In a face to face discussion with a friend and gamer, we were talking about Creo Imaginem. Now we both agreed and took it as canon that Creo species does not have to penetrate Parma. And I think I almost grasp why, pardon me if I am wrong, but the species bounces off other species and thus the original magical species that strikes the organ of sense is not the original magical species. This may just be my interpretation but if it is wrong then here is the issue.

You create by magic species.

You create by magic fire.

You create by magic a sword. A wolf. A ton of ice. A poison fart pink dragon. Ect.

Why is it that it seems ONLY that the magical species must not penetrate parma? Is this due to the species no longer being magical once you create them, vis a vis my argument that the original species passes on the information of the species to other particles of species that eventually strike the sensing organ of the target, thus no magical species interacts with the Parma protected person. OR is there another rational reason that my lack of astute reading has missed?

Because the case can be made that if once created, and at least for the duration of the spell, the thing created by the spell is a real and true item. Ie. you make a bear in the midst of brats who are teasing you for being bald, and that bear is a real bear with real claws and no matter what parma the kids have, then claws ignore having to penetrate. ((my knock at the loving people of the Book))

I should add I understand the use of vis to make a thing true and real and permanent, but I am not talking about this. I am only talking about non-vis things.

So I just cannot find in the books precisely WHY species is not a magical thing.

PS. If you create a massive blaze around the parma protected wizard.... the wizard does not suffer from the heat given off by the blaze but would suffer from the immediate lack of breathable air correct? Not because of smoke or any inhalation issue but simply because of the lack of O2. Thoughts?

[Erik_Tyrrell]

You create a magical image, this image produces mundane species.

An analogy might be creating a horse for duration moon. The horse is magical for the duration of the spell and will be stopped by magic resistance that it can not penetrate. However, as it eats mundane food and digests it the magical horse creates mundane horse crap and someone could throw this poop at even the greatest of archmagi without fear of it getting stopped by their parma.

If you create species directly with creo imaginem, then they will have to penetrate parma, (this is discussed in HoH:Socitates in the Jerbiton chapter IIRC).

[Portianitor]

Thanks Erik, that was quite succinct and seemed practiced. As if you have had to explain the concept a few hundred dozen times. Thanks

Oddly now I got it. And it really makes sense, I have looked at the Jerbiton section before but I don't personally own it so I will have to borrow a fellow game mate's book.

Fair enough, so if one were to create specifically species that only one individual would be able to experience, then that should penetrate, but an actual illusion creates only the impetus for natural species to be reflected and/or created to find those who would be experiencing the sight/sound/taste/ect.

My wording may be faulty but I totally grok what you wrote with just one reading, thanks!

[cunningrat1]

@Portianitor

Because the case can be made that if once created, and at least for the duration of the spell, the thing created by the spell is a real and true item. Ie. you make a bear in the midst of brats who are teasing you for being bald, and that bear is a real bear with real claws and no matter what parma the kids have, then claws ignore having to penetrate. ((my knock at the loving people of the Book))

I should add I understand the use of vis to make a thing true and real and permanent, but I am not talking about this.

Not quite correct. With Creo, unless you do use vis to make a thing true and real and permanent, the thing created by the spell is still magical. It's a magical bear, so its magical claws would be resisted by Parma. Its byproducts -- dung, in Eric's example -- are mundane, but the claws aren't.

[Portianitor]

@cunningrat1

@Portianitor

Because the case can be made that if once created, and at least for the duration of the spell, the thing created by the spell is a real and true item. Ie. you make a bear in the midst of brats who are teasing you for being bald, and that bear is a real bear with real claws and no matter what parma the kids have, then claws ignore having to penetrate. ((my knock at the loving people of the Book))

I should add I understand the use of vis to make a thing true and real and permanent, but I am not talking about this.

Not quite correct. With Creo, unless you do use vis to make a thing true and real and permanent, the thing created by the spell is still magical. It's a magical bear, so its magical claws would be resisted by Parma. Its byproducts -- dung, in Eric's example -- are mundane, but the claws aren't.

Yeah I am aware of this aspect of Creo, I was trying to say that if one is creating species via Imaginem then just like magical animal then the species would have to penetrate. But Erik's example cleared it up for me. It was sorta me saying that if we allow species created by Creo to bypass parma because we say they are natural once created, then I gave a bunch of those other Creo examples.

But the reality is that the magus is creating a illusion which then is casting out species that are natural, as natural as the manufacturing by-product of the process by which non-magical horses are digested by magical bears.