Creature's powers really can't botch

Is it correct that a creature's power has a penetration solely based on its might, the points spent, modified by the aura. No die rolling (stress or simple) involved? Also the magic resistence of magi is a static value only modified by aura.
Si if that's true, it seems quite strange to me that a creature using its supernatural powers just can't botch. Additionally if they can penetrate with an ability, they can simply repeat their affect round by round, which could render its victim(s) totally helpess without a chance to avoid the effect.

Compared to other RPGs IMHO this makes ArM5 extremly dangerous for PCs and kind of dull for SGs. Your "stronger" villains just can't fail with their supernatural actions, it only depends on the initiative.
Is there something I missed in the rules, or are there any recommendable houserules for that?

(However disregarding that I stil L O V E Ars Magica..)

Yep.

I think it works quite well - the critters can do what they do. They're not casting spells which can botch, they are using their natural (well, supernatural) powers, innate manifestations of their power and essence. It fits tematically for me that it always works (if it penetrates). And it's simpler this way.

The PCs can often try to evade the critter's powers using spells and magical effects. Not straight Magic Resistance, but fire-suppression spells or so on. So they've got options. You can, at your whim, grant similar special powers to NPC critters - perhaps by giving them magic items, striking bargains with foreign wizards/demons/whatever that grant them special powers/items/blessings, or so on.

That said, there are many house rules on Magic Resistance, and you could certainly change things to allow creatures to roll for penetration and/or magi to roll for MR.

Well I wasn't sure as SG what happens when two different active effects overlap on the same target.
Exempli Gratia: The fearie smoothface (Antagonists p.126) effected a grog with gripping fear (sun duration), who was gripped by terror and forced to flee. The magus tried to break the fear by spontanously instilling a CrMe-Effect on the grog to evoke positive emotions (only duration diameter). Would the two effects automatically cancel each other out for the duration of two minutes? Does the CrMe-Spell targeting the grog have to have more penetration than the gripping fear effect or must it penetrate the smoothfaces MR (might 10+Aura) to be able to suppress it?


I wasn't quite sure how to handle it.. (But in the end it didn't matter anyway, because the critter also targeted the poor magus with fear, who stepped back in panic and dropped himself backwards (no sense of direction flaw + botch) down a cliff, just to save himself with a last-second rise of the feathery body) the perfect drama.. :smiley:

Hi,

Limited by Might points spent. A magus with a Mastered spell or a magic item is even more dangerous: Botches are unlikely or impossible, and the power can be used every round.

Magic in AM is powerful.

Depends from where you get your excitement.

My general personal opinion (redundancy deliberate) and rule of thumb is that an rpg that depends on the unpredictability of rolling dice for its interest and excitement is at best mediocre. RPGs tend to have shallower mechanics and poorer balance than 'real' games of chance like poker, bridge and the stock market but then there's the whole roleplay thing.

What makes AM5 extremely dangerous is the mechanic of rolling up: Creatures with Might cannot botch, but they also don't get to roll up, which means that Magic Resistance is pretty certain, one way or the other.

A magus might botch, but can also roll up or toss in some vis.

Different perspective rather than house rule? D&D style combat is possible in a game like AM, but that's not where this kind of game excels.

A great story about dealing with a dragon is about everything that leads up to the confrontation, which, as in an action movie, is a fate accompli and therefore intrinsically uninteresting unless the players have gone about things the wrong way. It isn't about "can I roll better for my character than the GM does for the dragon?"

Similarly, and on the other side of the spectrum, a story about a mischievous faerie that a magus can squish with a casual low level PeVi isn't (or shouldn't be) about "does the magus botch his casting roll?" It's about how people react to the mischief and mishaps, who they blame, what they do, how they discover that there's a faerie, and the fallout, if any.

Chaotic, rather than random.

Anyway,

Ken

Yes, it is simpler and it fits. But actually the gift is also an innate ability/the essential nature of a magus, and yet using it, is unpredictable - u can botch - maybe that's a flaw in hermetic theory. :question:

We ilke to play in a very immersive and atmospheric kind of way with almost 90% IC-Playtime, which is focussed around the players emotions and actions and with an improvisational SG approach. It's definitaly not D&D-style..

I agree, totally. Maybe the word dull was not the best choice, as I'm not a native speaker. What I wanted to say is, that while I like to reduce dice rolling on the players side to increase game speed and to have more time to listen my players ideas and their acting, I ilke to have a little die rolling behind the masterscreen.
On one hand it makes me feel like, the outcome of the story is less preliminary decided, so it's like an anti-railroading device.
On the other hand it's kind of a surprise element for me as a SG, if I can't predict all the actions of my NPC/Critters.
Lastly the sound of rolling dice behind a screen makes player's feel at unease, which is a great tool to add tension.

Technically I can see, that most RPG-systems have either two opposed die rolls comparing the results against each other, or one roll against a static value, which increases gamespeed and reduces random factors. Having a comparison of 2 statics is something new.

Creatures don't botch because it makes combat a lot less interesting if the enemies randomly commit suicide. It would be like playing D&D, and every hundredth goblin is in a cult that makes them slash their own belly when they see you.

Firstly in our stories we played in ArM NPC-Critters ever since could botch in combat (same combat totals for everybody). AFAIK that's the RAW. Why shouldn't creatures powers role a stressdie too?
Secondly the argument of boring suicide isn't true, because as a SG you are in charge of determining the botch effects. A botch normally doesn't lead to suicide, only if it furthers the story. Introducing a creature into the story, just to kill it later because of a botch result (also you own decision as SG) rolled secretly behind the screen, doesn't really make sense, exept you wanted the scene to be like that. BTW you can get the same result without die-rolling. From my POV this approach certainly isn't a matter of a bad gamessystem (D&D or whichever), but rather bad GM-ing/SG-ing style. Blindlessly following die results is maybe something frequently seen by powergamers or novice-roleplayers, and ofc in Computer-RPGs..
Anyway.. talking bout "D&D is bad - ArM is good", wasn't my intention and doesn't intrest me. (I know why I play Ars magica and not D&D :slight_smile:

However, what I was trying to talk about, was that supernatural effects always work, if they penetrate MR, or don't have any effect at all, which has an unrealistic feeling to me. My thoughts are actually not only about mere botchresults - they are more exeption than the rule - but rather the possibility of a failed action of a creature as a story element.
Imagine a failed dragons fiery breath in the event of a climatic confrontation - looks like an intresting aspect for storytelling to me. "Could you, mighty dragon, maybe use a cough mixture? I coincidentally got some on me. Let's declare a truce!"
If you play RAW this could not happen by chance, because creature's powers can't fail or botch.

Besides what I'm still unclear of, is the following rules-issue. How would handle it?

What happens when two different active effects overlap on the same target?
Exempli Gratia: The fearie smoothface (Antagonists p.126) effected a grog with gripping fear (sun duration), who was gripped by terror and forced to flee. The magus tried to break the fear by spontanously (not fast-casting) instilling a CrMe-Effect on the grog to evoke positive emotions (only duration diameter). Would the two effects automatically cancel each other out for the duration of two minutes? Does the CrMe-Spell targeting the grog have to have more penetration than the gripping fear effect or must it penetrate the smoothfaces MR (might 10+Aura) to be able to suppress it?

IMC, the effect with the highest magnitude manifests.

That's intresting. And in case of a tie?

Hi,

Now that sounds like a superior D&D campaign. Why are these goblins different from all other goblins? Why exactly 1 goblin in 100? Tracking down the cult, dealing with the megalomanical villain... fun times.

On another note, I don't think this reasoning went into AM design, simply because most antagonists do roll stress dice for most of what they do, including--to the point--swordplay. 1 in 100 indeed!

Anyway,

Ken

I suspect the issue is that there is nothing to roll with these powers. For magi you have something to roll to activate the power, but unless you need Finesse there is no further roll for the power. Creatures behave the same way: no further roll past activation unless you need Finesse. As for the actual activation, since it's innate it doesn't use Abilities/Arts to activate.

You made the creature and have explicit permission in the rules to remake it in play.

Don't make a rod for your own back. In case of a tie, do whatever's most fun for the group.