Creo Aquam Spell Guidelines...

This pretty much spells it out, but I figured I would get clarification all the same. Our covenant is located on the side of a volcano and getting a reliable source of drinking water is proving to be a pain in the butt. As my focus is on creo magic, I'd probably tackle the problem by creating an item like a pitcher of water that is always full or something. Unfortunately, according to the guidelines it sounds like I'd still dehydrate drinking from said item. Does the same apply to all liquids created from creo magic?

In the creo/herbam guidelines, food can be made nutritious if the creation is a ritual. Could this apply to water as well?

Another thought I had is to use rego aquam in said item to draw the water from a nearby (within a few leagues) stream to keep the pitcher always full. However, this item might be pretty challenging for newly gauntleted magi to pull off since it would basically be teleporting the water akin to a "seven league stride".

Was just curious if anyone else had any input/advice. More mundane solutions to the problem are proving unfeasible given the covenant's location.

Thanks. :slight_smile:

My take, for whatever it's worth, is that a ritual creo aquam spell could create "real" water that actually prevents dehydration. For your covenants needs, a creo aquam ritual to create a spring as a permanent water source would probably be a solution.

I personally don't see the need for ritual Creo for drinking water. I believe this is not the concensus opinion among AM players though.

Creating water with a Moon duration spell ought to create water that behaves as normal for the entire month, including for bathing or drinking purposes. If you use short-duration CrIg to cook meat, it doesn't go back to an uncooked state at the end of the spell.

Everful jugs of water or wine and endless containers of food certainly fit the source literature.

Creo Aquam rituals create water that is "real" water in all respects. You are using vis, so therefore it is a "permanent" effect.

The trouble I have with the month duration water, is in medieval paradigm, we don't know that water lasting a month should be long enough to have the desired effects. Similarly, a Creo Corpus healing spell lasting a month would heal the wound for that time period, and assuming no natural healing occurs during the month (why would any... there is nothing to heal), when the duration expires, the wound is unhealed.

And your CrIg example is flawed. You keep meat in a fire for a certain duration to cook it as desired. Whether the fire goes out right afterward, or the fire burns for all eternity, it's job cooking the meat is done. Similarly, a sphere of water created with a duration of diameter is dropped from a height of 6000ft on a house. The house is destroyed. If the duration of the water was a month, year, permanent or 3 secs, as long as it is water when the house is hit .. no more house.

A bit off topic, and maybe a thread hijack. I have been playing Ars since the 2nd edition and this problem has always been around. It is not an easy problem to solve, given the creativity of most players. I hope, that when the 6th edition comes out (if ever) there is some serious thought given to this and other issues.

Indeed you're right, it's probably a thread hijack on my part but I can't help responding once more.

Why is the CrIg example flawed? My point, perhaps inelegantly expressed, is that the effects of a temporary Cr don't go away when the created substance goes away. CrAq water will vanish when the duration ends but the effects of it shouldn't. I think we agree on that much. I take your point on not knowing how long medievals think water remains in the body, but I also think common sense has to rule here. Sun duration may not be enough but Moon should be. It can't be that the water remains a part of the person forever or we'd all be the size of lakes.

Medieval paradigm or not, I'd be surprised to see a game where dehydration matters, for example crossing a wasteland, where the group doesn't use moden ideas of how long a person can go without water. I'd be even more surprised to find out that experienced medieval desert travellers had a very different understanding of this issue than we do today.

If that magical water is used to extinguish a fire, the fire doesn't spring back to life when the spells ends. If the CrIg cooks meat, the meat doesn't uncook. If CrHr creates firewood which then is used to cook meat, the meat doesn't uncook. CrCo won't do permanent healing but if CrHr creates a bandage the wound doesn't spring open a month later. So why should a person dehydrate if he drank magical water on the 1st of the month and the spell ends on the 30th?

Perhaps the ground around the latrine becomes a little drier though. :smiley:

Well, you can side step the whole thing in a way you can't with food. Create a rainstorm. The water that falls is completely natural, collect it.

LuciusT hit it right on the head - though dummoning rains would work really well too.

just to be a nuisance, but I'm fairly certain water couldn't fall 6000ft in 3 seconds :wink:

Would the water from the rain remain after the end of the spell? Making an item that creates a storm would be the most doable at this point. The ritual is a bit beyond my capabilities at this point.

Yes. It's a little weird, but you are creating "weather", and the rain is a natural byproduct of that. It will be Creo Auram, not Creo Aquam, but other then that, you should be good to go.

I think your initial confusion comes from the poor language used in this rule. The subject of the sentence is "temporarily created water" and the verb is "quenches thirst." I could see how one could read it as "created water" "temporarily quenches thirst," but that is incorrect, because water created through a Ritual is non-magical and indistinguishable from "real" water.

Secondary effect.

Even if the exact "mechanics" behind it might be rather lacking, most medieval desert travellers probably had better knowledge of how much was needed of what than the vast majority of people living in industrialised nations today.

No but there isnt really a concensus though even if it seems most lean towards the "only ritual really works".

Yes this is pretty much what i prefer as well, put enough duration in either food or water and you can live on it.
There´s a downside with how RAW durations cant be "a month from the day the spell is cast" however.
This in part was one of the reasons i came up with additional durations, that are essentially the same but counts from the time of casting and is a higher magnitude then the RAW equivalents.

Basically, if there´s at least a couple of weeks left of duration in food or water, i let characters survive without lasting issues from it.

I'm with those who think that long duration mean the "secondary effects" remains after the spell ends.

Same goes for:

  • a meal cooked by CrIg
  • excrement from a magical sun horse
  • Way travelled over by a magical diameter boat
    And so for hunger and thirst: the food/water is assimilated during the long duration and transformed.

My thoughts on this, for whatever they are worth, have very little to do with the RAW but rather with the ideas behind the rules...

Creating nourishing water (or food) isn't a matter of spell duration. It's a matter of creating the "mystical" property of food and water that makes it nourishing. Magically created food and water with a duration is, by it's nature, a temporary thing sustained by magic which ceases to exist when the magic ends. It lacks some essential property necessary to make it real and therefore it cannot nourish like real food and water. Whatever nourishment is gained from it is temporary and ends when the magic ends. Food and water created by ritual magic is real.

Examples of secondary effects like temporary magical fire burning or temporary magical horses leaving hoofprints are not equal to temporary food nourishing because nourishment is a more complex mystical function than burning or leaving hoofprints. Ultimately, nourishment is a life-giving property, equal to healing, and magical life-giving properties, like healing, require ritual magic.


A most beautiful description of the logic behind the magic from LuciusT.

Bathing in temporary waters should be fine though.

I'd suggest using ReAq spells(or items) to move part of a stream into your covenant.

Mmm. Arcane connection range ReAq item dumped on the bottom of a lake/river. I see possibilities. :mrgreen: