Creo Co/Me Stat Improvement Spells

Must these be individual, or can they be any target?

Technically, any target can be used, as can any range. While it's harder to invent a higher-level version or more dangerous to cast a circle version, the vis savings are great. That doesn't mean your storyguide will OK it. Group target ought to be acceptable.


An enchanted room that gave a bonus to "all within the room" at a given moment would be exceptionally powerful, and a SG might well feel that's asking a bit too much. But there's nothing in the Guidelines or Rules that prohibit it specifically, only the Central Rule.

Particularly, a ritual. Say someone made it Circle target to raise everyone's Strength permanently for less overall vis.

(As a SG, I would take a ~lot~ of convincing to believe a circle could be used to permanently enhance someone in a Ritual. The whole "until the circle is broken" thing... Unless they were going to live in that circle. And even then, that raises different problems.)

Assuming we're talking about the spells in the books, there is a rule that prohibits it: can't enchant an item with a ritual.

The circle is broken thing is not a valid argument. The spell has ended before that has happened. Its duration was Momentary. There is nothing to cancel. Do you also play that Momentary CrCo healing rituals can be later dispelled? Now, if the circle is broken during the casting, well then some fun will ensue. Of course, everyone is welcome to rule that you cannot use the Circle target for momentary Creo rituals, but that is a house rule.


The topic of this thread is not enchanting, it's CrCo/Me improvements to Characteristics, and their targets (with or without vis to make the effect permanent). That's what we're talking about.

Which (oddly enough) is one reason why I would not allow it in the first place. It changes "Target:Individual" to "Target: Pick a Number" for the same magnitude, same vis cost.

The point of using a Circle is that it has serious limitations. There would effectively be none with this suggested application.

And the Central Rule is not a Houserule, as I mentioned above. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work - by the Rules.

serf's parma!
Wasn't there something in the RAW about creo and target? Like you cannot create a circle filled with diamonds as only individual and group are valid targets? Got to check on this asap.

Yes and no - only with regard to Creo that "actually creates something". Creo that heals, Creo that improves, is not so limited.

So, you're right - you can create an Individual diamond, or a Group of diamonds, or even a Group of a million diamonds with +5 magnitudes for additional size, but you could not create a "Room" full of diamonds.

But with regard to other Creo effects, Room and other Targets are fair game for consideration.

I was referring to the the part when you started talking about an "enchanted room." I wasn't the one who brought up enchanting.

Which is quite reasonable.

Please don't try pulling a whole semantics thing. I don't find it very polite, and it's really confusing to those who may not be as familiar with the rules. Note, I didn't say the Central Rule is a house rule, I said your statement about Circles is. The Central Rule or Rule Zero, as it's commonly called, is that you should feel free to change any of the other rules to fit your game. If we then state that following that is not making house rules, then there is no such thing as a house rule, and the term "house rule" should not exist in this context. Yet it does. Why? Because house rules are very specifically applications of that Rule Zero, or whatever you want to call it.

When talking about the rules it is important to differentiate between your house rules and the rules in the book. It's good to point out that yours is a house rule and why you're using that house rule.

This all goes back to why I said it "technically" works but that the storyguide may not OK it. There are good reasons for not OKing it, such as those reasons you wrote above.


(nm) :blush:

To me, it's not mere semantics - there's a significant and obvious difference between a "House Rule" and a Rule that is presented as more than a mere option, that is literally "Central" to the spell guidelines.

To me, a Houserule is something that cannot be found in the rules at all. The Central Rule is not optional, it's not something I pulled out of some orifice and then applied to my saga on my own initiative.

If you want to lump the Central Rule in with Houserules, don't ask me to as well.

No, it's not (not even close). If it were, then I would agree that there's no diff between that and a HouseRule.

Well, neither did I as a topic of discussion, but merely in passing as one example of a "Target", whether in a formulaic spell or not.

Okay, let's back up then - what Ritual? I hadn't mentioned vis, nor any permanent effect. (Jachra did, but not in connection with any enchantment.) Enchanting a Room with the effect for anything less than Year duration has nothing to do with Rituals either.

(Perhaps I should have said "The topic of this thread is not Rituals"?)

Now that you mention it, what ~was~ your point with that comment? :confused:

I had originally misread it as referring to creating an enchanted item with a Ritual (and thinking that you were referring to the grogs with Improved Characteristics as "enchanted items", as in "...can't make an item enchanted via a ritual".) But that's clearly not the case, and you meant something entirely different - but I can't understand what you might have been referring to now.

The topic of this thread is Rituals. Specifically stat boosting rituals with CrCo or CrMe. And you can enchant items with rituals with special secret knowledge, but that is besides the point.

I stayed out of this for a while because I am weary of debates. But the short answer to Jachra's original question...

Yes, you can cast these rituals with any target. You can use Group, or if using Faerie Magic you can use Bloodline. It is even possible to use Circle, Structure, or Boundary. Some people will howl, but if you want to increase the Stamina of everyone in the covenant, I say go for it. Whatever works for your saga.

CH, you may be confusing Circle Target with Ring Duration. The circle can be broken after you have cast the spell, it will not affect the effects of the momentary ritual at all.

And I don't know what this "Central Rule" thing is. What page is it on? I am unsure. But anyways, Rules As Written say you can do this. To say you cannot is indeed a House Rule.

I doesn't surprise me at all that you are not familiar with it - it's large and top-dead-center on the first page of the Spell section.

A rather bold statement, considering all evidence to the contrary...

One of us is confused, I'll agree to that.

Thanks :slight_smile:. I will look it up tonight. I proably know it, I just forgot the title of it. Much appreciated.

And these belong to what catergory of spell casting?
Answer: Ritual Spells.

See? I can take your verbal assaults in good humor because I know that just the way you are. I respect and admire your fire :wink: But others who don't know you as well, or know me for that matter, they can get easilly offended and feel attacked by the sorts of harsh statements we throw around. I have been making an effort to rein myself in. I would suggest that maybe you take this into consideration sometimes. I mean, I am all good. I am a veteran Berklister and virtually flame-proof by now. Others are not. It is for their sake that I ask you to try and soften your tone.

If it was you and me locked in full on Certamen, then get as harsh as you want. But you turned down my last Certamen challenge. Maybe you are getting soft? :mrgreen:

It's exactly for their sake that I object to you babbling about rules that you clearly do not understand, and your predictably over-simplified - or just plain wrong - interpretations.

Let's take a recent case in point...

You are quite mad.

The Creo Corpus Guidelines for this start at Level 35, the Creo Mentem at Level 30.

+0 for Personal, and a generous +3 for Moon - what part of not a Ritual are you having trouble with here?
Or, for the Mentem, a total of +4 in R/D/T, and that's still... (say it with me, Marko)... not a Ritual.

You understand just enough to sound good to newbies, and that's dangerous. You recently tried to compare the penetration for a magicked dagger with that of wood from a tree that had been cut down via a PeHe spell. You compared the penetration of a Creo Ignem effect with that of a mundane blowtorch. You need to work on the rules just a little more before you pretend to give advice on them.

I am opinionated and outspoken and at times grating, and I often have overly narrow interpretations of the rules, but at least I can add to 50. :unamused:

I am not finding D: Moon anywhere in the conversation. Maybe I am overlooking it. However, the stat boosting spells from the RAW are all rituals. (Characteristic) of the Followers, (Characteristic) of the Heroes; these are all Momentary Rituals. It has nothing to do with level. I know how to add.

Your personal attacks have no effect upon me. I know the rules much better than just about anyone, especially you, despite what you claim. I called you out in Certamen over the Ignem spell. You refused. I had a great essay already written refuting you point by point. But you declined, so I threw it away.

I will play rough if you want, but only so long as you agree to keep it playful and refrain from bitterness. Otherwise I simply won't bother.

Dude, I like you. I like debating with you. It is usually great fun. But you have become condescending and somewhat insulting as of late. I am trying to warn you because that is a path I wandered down a long time ago. Being the worst Berklister of all time ever is not a title I am proud of. Take my advice and be of good humor :slight_smile:

Sure, but that's because the examples in the book are interested in permanent changes. There's nothing in the spell rules that suggests you can't temporarily boost stats using the CrCo/CrMe guidelines. This is the point I believe Cuchulainshound is trying to make.

According to the rules Momentary spells end immediately. Also according to the rules Momentary Creo rituals become non-magical immediately. There is no spell to end when the circle is broken. (The casting can be interrupted, though.) That is what the rules say. Feel free to change things from there, but let's be honest.

Perhaps I should also point out some other issues such a house rule would cause? Let's say you do a momentary CrIg spell with a circle target to torch everything in the circle. Let's say you kill a whole bunch of things/people with that spell. You're now saying that breaking the circle brings them back to life? Or does the dispelling of the non-magical effects of Circle spells that have now ended happen on a whim and not apply to this CrIg spell?

As I said, not allowing the Circle target for such spells is fine, but it's a house rule. It cannot be found in the rules at all. The closest are comments in the rules about adapting them to fit your needs. If I'm wrong, please quote me where it says that breaking the circle dispels the non-magical aftereffects of a circle spell.

Go back and read the sentence to which you are referring, not just a fragment of that sentence. It's pretty obvious to what ritual I'm referring. I stated it upfront.

You made the assumption this thread is not about rituals. Others have made the assumption that it is about rituals. It was not stated, and I have not made that assumption. I made a conditional statement about it. If the original post is referring to such rituals, then there is a rule preventing enchanting an item in such a way (barring a breakthrough). If the original post is not referring to such rituals, then I made no statement about a rule preventing enchantments.