Creo Corpus with long durations


In Ars Magica 5 core rulebook, in guidelines for Creo Corpus spells, it is explained that using a duration longer than "momentary" permit to heal a wound until the duration comes to its end, when the wound reappear. However a momentary Creo Corpus spell permit to definitely heal a wound.

What is the point of using an other duration than momentary ?

The level will be higher than the very same spell with a momentary duration (because of extended duration) but less effective.

Did I miss something in the rules ?

The momentary requires VIS which is why it is momentary and permanent. The other form lets you get yourself into good shape to perhaps fight your way back to the covenant where the vis is stored.

Thank you very much :slight_smile:

Does the VIS use imply it is a ritual and can't be cast as a formulaic spell ?

Yes, that is exactly the case. Look at the main book, Chirurgeon's healing touch that heals a light wound: Touch, momentary, individual is a ritual.

Which is another reason, the non-momentary versions might be much quicker as well to get you out of trouble.

Yes and no - vis can be used with any spell to improve the Casting Total (see page 82-83). The fact that it is defined and labeled as a Ritual Spell implies it is a ritual spell. Some identical base effects can make sense as either Formulaic or Ritual (even if the final effect differs), so only the definition of the specific spell determines that.

Momentary healing in a Formulaic (non-Ritual!) spell does not require Vis - but is useless in that the wound re-opens after a moment... oops!
Sun Duration healing is actually very useful, as it seals a wound until sunset/rise and ought to give time to either get the victim home, or apply Chirurgy is a careful non-stressful manner (off the battlefield, and without blood pouring out!).

What is key is that some Creo (healing) spells are Ritual spells, and that Ritual Momentary spells (in certain categories) can leave persistent, natural remains. (The special category here is "create natural things" or "repair things to their natural state" or "improve within natural limits", and the key word is "natural".) Ritual healing of wounds restores the target to its natural, unwounded state, so when the spell ends, no more magic is needed.

All Ritual spells require Vis: they are not possible without Vis - and the Vis is what powers the Ritual to make special effects.

(Note that some Ritual spells are Ritual for reasons other than "to leave a persistent remnant").

If your covenant has a capable infirmary then will temporary healing spells, you will find that you can return your grogs easily to the chirgeon without taking extra time. It also means that if your grogs are beseiged and wounded on the way to combat, they will still be fresh as daisies when they get there. Doing this with Vis would be simply far too expensive.

Of course, when the spells end they will be riddled with numerable wounds, but a good healing Magus should have spells which add major bonuses to healing and a good chirgeon will add too. This means that your grogs will be more likely to live to ripe old ages and be very capable warriors.


If you make a cr co with a moon duration ritual, would you heal all wound during that moon?

Depends on the spell effect. As the CrCo guidelines clearly state, "unless otherwise noted, a healing spell cast other than as a Momentary duration ritual actually suspends the healing process so that upon the spell's expiration, wounds are as fresh as they were when the spell was cast..." (p 130)

The exceptions are effects that aid in Recovery.

So, an effect that gives +12 to Recovery for moon would aid greatly in healing wounds. But an effect that "heals" a serious wound for moon would not allow any healing of that wound.


I think the answer is not... but ...

The question is:
when you are magically healed with a NON ritual CrCo. Say for moon (longest non vis spell). During the time you are "healed" (not real, because after the duration, you will be wounded again !), can you be "really" healed by a ritual spell?

I think not.

And you?

I'm not sure I understand your question.

Meaning, if a huge PeVi spell was cast on you years later, would the Ritual be undone and the old, old wounds reopen?

No, not as the effect is described, not as I interpret it. YSMV.

It could be adjudicated either way, much like Corpus will still affect you if you've been turned into a dog. I'm leaning towards not allowing the ritual. Cautious mages would not cast it either.

"- He's not wounded, why do you want us to waste vis on a healing ritual?

  • He's not now, but he'll be later.
  • Come back later then."

I think the thing with a CrCo ritual is that the magic is momentary, the vis is consumed and the spell becomes natural. A PeVi won't dispell it as there is nothing left to dispell. A ritually created rock will ignore parma for this reason for example.

A PeVi spell would dispell anyhting which had a longer duration as what you are dispelling is the active magics, even (where appropraite) year duration rituals.

I would also say that the rules say heal A wound, not all wounds. Chirgeons Healing touch (I think) doesn't heal all light wounds but there is a 35th Level guideline heal all wounds.

There is a Tytalan Leper magi guideline which reduces all wounds by one level (so Heavy become medium, medium light and light go poof). This is great spell to speed healing if permenant. My question is but could it also make it easier to cast healing spells. For example are you healing Light wounds or that were once medium or would you still need to heal medium wounds?

Personally I'd say that without Vis in the tytalan spell, the wounds remain at their level for the purposes of other healing spells.


Reduces their severity by 1 category, ok. As long as they remain under the effects of the tytalian leper spell they will remain like that, not healing themselves at all. If that is not a Momentary duration spell, that is. Pretty much like CHT (a spell that in this edition sucks 99%, BTW)



Slight diversion, but I reccomend this as a HR for everyone to use. All instances where the RAW says "Heal a Light Wound", cnage that to "Improve one wound one level". Heal medium becomes "improve two levels", and so on. So for example, take CrCo20r Chirurgeon's Healing Touch. Instead of only affecting light wounds, allow it to improve any wound by one level. Add two magnitudes and increase the target to Group, and you have CrCo30r "heal all wounds one level".

The problem with this HR (I think) is that there is then not much point having any permanent, ritual healing spell except Chirugeon's Healing Touch. You can heal anything by just repeatedly casting the same spell. Of course it takes longer, and is less efficient on vis usage, but if you're busy casting Ritual spells you are hardly pressed for time anyway.

This is, also, I think the best reason for having a few non-ritual, healing spells with Sun (or even Diameter) Duration. You can cast the non-ritual ones during a combat round to keep the grogs standing and hitting things. Whereas, it takes at least an hour to cast a Ritual spell (and longer for most).


Healing a light wound as ritual is safe, same for medium (20 and 25). Healing a heavy wound is level 30 and you are getting to warping now.

If you can use cure light wound to improve wound one level and medium to improve two levels, you can heal a heavy wound as follows

3 cure/improve light: 12 pawns vis, 3 hours
1 cure/improve light, 1 cure/improve medium: 9 pawns vis, 2 1/4 hours
1 Cure/improve Heavy wound: 1 1/2 hours, 6 pawns vis, 1 warping point

The warping point is the important liability as it is forever. You can cure unlimited amount of times without warping with lower spells if you allow the improving of wound levels. Sure the lower level spells use up more vis and time but you get a grog with 5 heavy wounds over a course of a year and suddenly they are at their first flaw for warping.

Healing a Incapacitating wound could be done as level 25 for two mediums or one cure incap: works out to 10 pawns of vis and 150 minutes for the two cure medium vs 7 pawns, 105 minutes and warping point for the single cure incapacitatng wound.

The whole warping issue is what drives limitations on curing wound vs improving wounds.

I have had no problems with this though. It works fine.
Just relying on the basic CHT, though, is a massive waste of vis. It would take 12 pawns to keal a Heavy Wound this way, casting the ritual 4 times, as opposed to 6 pawns and a single casting for CrCo30 ritual. And most injuries don't consist of a single wound. Rather, you have several wounds (say, two Light and a Medium). Using CHT only, and the HR, it takes 4 castings and 16 pawns of vis, as opposed to a single casting of IotBMW and 8 pawns. Half the vis, half the time.

No Warping until the 7th Magnitude in my game. Remember? :slight_smile:

Possibly, but if you've got vis to burn on casting Ritual spells then I don't see that it makes much difference. Also, you're not necessarially going to completely heal every major wound. For example, it would be often be effective enough to just use your HRed CHT to move the Incapacitating Wound down to a Medium and let the character recover naturally from there. There's no longer much risk of the character dying from his wounds.

The other big issue is that you only need to invent CHT once, under your rules, for which you only need a Lab Total of 20 if inventing from a lab text and say > 30 is reasonable if inventing from scratch. To invent the other spells you need much higher Lab Totals, and more time in the laboratory. Pretty much every freshly guantleted magus is in spitting distance of a Lab Total of 20 --- so under your HR virutally everyone in the Order of Hermes could be able to heal any non-fatal wound given enough time and vis.