Creo Ignem spell / item design question

hello all,

I am trying to design an item that would make warm candles.

basically something that would cast lamp without flame and a warming spell together on any object placed within the enchanted object.

the effect would have day duration but i want to be able to cast on a group of items... basically artificial torches that will heat and light the covenant without burning it down.

I was thinking 6 objects at a time, once the enchanted item casts the effect on the 6 "candles", the candles then can be moved or placed wherever the members wished.

my problem is in thinking how to do it without making them too hot, and how many would it take to heat an average size room.

bright as torch or bright as candle? warm to the touch? hot to the touch? or hot enough to melt things and start fires?

This sentence confuses me - you want to warm a room, or "any object placed within the enchanted object"?

Or you want something like an oven, that will then warm/enchant some secondary objects, that can then be taken around the covenant as needed?

If you're trying to do it mundanely, like a hot oven that heats stones that are then placed somewhere, and their heat heats the room, then that's possible - but for "light", all you're doing is setting something on fire - there's nothing magical about lighting a torch or six. (And candles tend to melt when heated - not sure if you were going there or not.)

Best might be to make something like a single magical brazier that has a Shape/Material bonus for both heat and light, and enchant it to light/heat an entire room. Both effects are CreoIgnem (tho' different within that), so it should not be hard to hammer out some appropriate Base + Magnitudes effect.

one suggestion for the math:
Base 2: heat to warm
Base 4: light = cloudy day

Item: CrIg 30 effect (Item 39)
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +2 Room, +1 magnitude for light and heat, +1 Item maintains concentration, +3 levels environmental trigger, +1 level for 2 uses/day)

(Or lose the extra magnitude for light and heat in one, and make 2 items, one Base 2, one Base 4).

If you're trying to make an item that makes a magically heated stone (individual) for a day, that then heats a room - that won't work. Magic does not generally radiate out beyond it's target. You magically heat an individual stone, then 6 of those individuals do not heat the room, just as casting "Heat: Individual" 6 times in the room does not add up to heat the room.

An item that casts a Light effect on objects 6x/day might work, as an "individual" of light is something that does spread out a bit, even if it does not add - 6 magical torchlights do not add up to be the equivalent of light from a cloudy day. ("Torchlight" might be adequate for reading, but for any real work, "cloud day" is probably the minimum any self-respecting magus would want.)

In answer to your question of "how many" torches or candles does it take, the answer is "enough". How big is the room? How high-quality is the torch? How big is the candle? Ars usually doesn't count pennies, so "enough" is the answer - or just a little more than enough. If I were a mage, I'd want at least two - one immediately on my left, and one on my right - for any work that needs to be done. And one more over my shoulder would be nice.

something like an oven or candelabra where you place the items in it they then start giving off light and heat for a day duration that u then can place around the covenant

As above, no, not for warmth.

Magical heat is not "given off". Either the individual is magically warm, or it is not. But the object next to that individual is never affected by that magic.

I know it can be hard to imagine, but that's how Ars magic works. Let's take this exercise...

Imagine a circle of magical light, one "individual unit" of light, on a pitch black night. People outside that light can see the circle of light, but something 1 inch outside the circle is not lit up. You cast your circle of light, and that's all that's affected. (It's magical light, so it works differently.)

Now image an illusion of a lamp. It casts no light at all, on anything, altho' it can be seen far away. Similar situation - magic.

Now, magical heat. You have 2 frozen bodies, and 2 cold survivors, from out of a blizzard. You magically heat one "individual" corpse - until it is touched, a bystander could not tell which, because no heat "radiates" out from that individual target. The magic only affects "individual". You heat one of the survivors, and they hug the other - same deal, only the individual target is warmed.

(Of course, if you don't like this, change it! The final interpretation is up to you and the Troupe.)

For light, just make an item that casts "light" several times/day. On a candle, on an apple, all same same. The item that casts the light matters for Shape/Material bonuses when enchanting, but once created, the target (unless defined otherwise by the spell effect) doesn't matter.

Sounds to me as if what you want is a magical fire-lighter and a grog to use it - he can wander around the covenant touching the sconces to make them burn with smokeless fire twice a day and not be consumed. The sconces can then be mundane.

I'd suggest CrIg 4 as the base - ie. a small fire the size of a torch, and then add a Rego requisite so that the fire cannot spread. You'd need to put stone sconces or fire-places around for the fire to sit on, but that should take care of your light and heating needs. It might be better to go for separate heating and lighting effects, however. A magus might draw inspiration from an hypocaust to create an item which targets a building and heats the floors to a comfortable level, for instance.

That could work too, depending on the desired effect. I'm not sure the Rego would be required, depending where the grog sets the magical fire.

Create mundane braziers or large tripod-type sconces - wrought iron, central pieces, maybe something on a chain that can be raised up high toward the (hopefully non-flammable) roof.

Item: CrIg 15 effect (Item 20)
(Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Sun, +5* = 24 uses/day)
(* or whatever your Lab Total allows)

But you're only creating a "wood fire" source of flame - that's going to be thin light to work from, if we're talking a lab or library environment. (I've tried to read by a campfire, it's not exactly user-friendly). But for mundane tasks and rooms, to simply create light that grogs could work by and magi and guests could enjoy, that would be more than adequate. And several in a small room would be adequate for reading or working, if not optimal. (Might get a bit warm, but, hey...)

Going by Cuchulain's Hound's base spell calculations I get CrIg 40 (Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Group, +2 Sun, +1 for heat and light effect, +10 unlimited uses per day) - This lets you "heat up" candles by batches of 10, as many as you need.

You can go down to CrIg 35 if you want a single batch of 100 candles per day or CrIg 36 for twice per day (once after sunrise, once after sunset). Of course, it's not convenient that your lights would fail right at sunset, but shrug.

Granted, I don't know much about medieval thermodynamics, but I'm pretty sure there are ways to get this to work. How are heat transfer or propagation of light (or their medieval equivalents) different from a magical fire starting mundane fires because that's what fires do? Something that is warmed magically will emit heat because that's what warm things do (although there are ways to design the spell so that this won't happen). For example, say I heat a stone with a duration momentary spell so that it glows red hot. Are you telling me that the stone (which is now hot, but isn't affected by magic anymore) doesn't emit heat? I hope not - that would be like saying magically created fire doesn't burn mundane things because magic "doesn't extend beyond its target".

So a stone infused with some amount of heat magically, in a moment, will emit heat. Now, what if I extend the duration of the spell, so that the stone remains red hot and won't cool down? I didn't change the base effect of the spell, so does the heat suddenly not extend beyond the stone?

Certainly, the cold survivor is not going to find magical heat welling up inside his body. Still, things created have effects on their surroundings beyond the magic used to create them. No heat is “created” within the survivor, but depending on the specifics of the spell, he may be able to feel the other’s heat and benefit from it. If the spell creates heat within the target’s body and does not allow it to leave, he may not benefit. But if it creates heat around the target, both the target and the guy hugging him can be warmed.

Hum... isn't making an item "hot to the touch" imply that it radiates heat instead or just feeling (if it were conscious) warm?