Daimons and Ars Goetia: Summoning

Just wondering:

Is it possible to Summon (using the Ars Goetia power from RoP:I) the Daimons of TMRE (or an Aspect of them)?

I can't really see why not, provided the summoner can obtain an Arcane Connection to the relevant Daimon which might be provided by the non-Hermetic Major Virtue Synthemata Magia.

If they can be summoned, can they be bound using the Binding power or Ablated using the Ablation power or does that merely cause an Aspect of the Daimon to be affected?

Thanks,

Jarkman
(causing trouble once again)

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DISCLAIMER: I dio not have ROP:I yet, so take the answer with a grain of salt.

You never summon a daimon, only an aspect. So whatever you do tio it, youi will never affect the "essence" of the daimon. Each aspect is independent fropm the basic daimon and from the other aspects.

Now, I suppose that ars goetia allows you to summon spirits. Are they only infernal spirits or any spirit is sumon-able? If the later, have fun summoning daimons :slight_smile:

So I guess you can bind or ablate an aspect (whatever ablation and binding is in ars goetia), but not a daimon as a whole.

Cheers,

Xavi

sure you can Summon an Aspect, and even Bind it - but that's fairly futile, as the Daemon can always "let go" of it and have it dissipate. But you can only summon or bind an Aspect - Daemons do not and cannot return to the mortal world..

If on the other hand you manage to travel to the Hall Of Heroes (wherever or whatever that might be :sunglasses: :sunglasses: :sunglasses: ), then you can interact with the real core Daemon. :smiling_imp:

What Caribet said. It should be noted that Daimons are generally quite willing ans sympathetic to "go along" and cooperate with Aspect summonings that use theurgic techniques, as this allows them to gain mystical power that they can use to improve themselves. They can efficienty counter unproductive summonings just by calling back the Aspect. Therefore, goetic summonings are only likely to be useful if they can allow the Daimon to "gain" power from the summoning. Differently from other spirits, faeries, and demons, you can't really oblige daimonic Aspcts to work under duress, with nothing to be gained.

Far reaches of the magic realm, turn right after Yddgrasil, go straight till the Twilight Void, then turn left ? 8) 8) :wink:

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That's what I thought. Thanks caribet/Wanderer.

Commanding would be reasonably futile.

Given that Ars Goetia summonings do not require vis as a gift etc, unlike Daimonic Theurgic summoning rituals I'd suspect this means the summoner would have to bargain with the daimon to get any service from the Aspect (or bind it for that matter).

A fast summoner could probably do a quick Ablation though before the Aspect was dissipated but this would probably earn the Daimon's enmity.

Does this sound right?

Regards,

Jarkman

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quite right - especially about the emnity.

Daemons are immortal after all, so they can afford to wait until they "get" you!

But would Ablation performed on an Aspect actually harm and diminish the Daimon ? I'm rather doubtful.

Anyway, the very next theurgist would notice the following clausle in the pact that the Aspect proposes "And you will allow me some free time to hunt down some Goetic sunufabitch, more brownie points for you if you give me some assistance".

As am I but it does generate a loophole:

  1. Summoner summons aspect of Daimon with Might 10.

  2. Summoner ablates aspect of all 10 Might points.

  3. Summoner summons a different aspect of said Daimon.

  4. Summoner ablates this second aspect of all 10 Might points.

ad nauseaum...

Do this 10 times (or more) and hey presto you've stacked up a load of Ablation points with very little risk or trouble at all.

You can do this with 10 separate Might 10 entities but you'd need 10 separate Arcane Connections to accomplish this (OK, not too hard if you come across a shipwreck or ancient battlefield full of slain soldiers etc but still).

Thoughts?

Jarkman

The rules don't actually support this, but here's how I would rule it:

An Aspect is a temporary thing, lasting only until its Daimon calls it back. It can be Ablated, but the benefits of the ablation are equally temporary, on a principle similar to that of temporary Creo'd food compared to permanent ritual Creo'd food.

As you say, the rules don't actually support this - theoretically two different magi can summon different aspects of the same Daimon and have them duke it out if they so desire. TMRE p81 states that "..a Daimon's Aspect, comjured elsewhere and moving through the world, will not willingly enter a place where there is or has been annother aspect within a day. The size of "place" that prevents an Aspect is not well defined..."

Aspects summoned using Ars Goetia are effectively coerced and presumably unwilling, not just "answering a call".

A summoner with access to some form of rapid transit magic could travel throughout the land summoning different Aspects of the same Daimon without a problem, provided Ars Goetia summoning forces an Aspect to attend.

Each aspect then has real Might points etc to spend, use to determine MR etc - ie. the Daimon in effect is employing twice it's base Might in one location. They each remain till their Might points are expended or until dispelled by the Daimon. I don't by the temporary Might scenario - the Might is real in every other way.

The implication of the rules is that Daimons have virtually unlimited Might (unless encountered in the Hall of Heroes in their True form) but can only portion it out in small amounts separate in time and space, although the number of Aspects is virtually unlimited.

I'm not interested in abusing this, I just noted it's a potential loophole that a clever player using Summoning rather than the "conventional" Invoke the Pact of (Daimon) spell might try.

I think it gets down to my original question: can Ars Goetia Summoning force a Daimon to manifest an Aspect rather than just requesting a Pact to be established?

Thanks for any clarification,

Jarkman

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Two aspects of the same Daimon can't be in the same location within 24 hrs of each other IIRC. That also includes the scenario where one aspect is 'let go of' and you try to resummon ... a no go for 24 hrs.

This time aspect appears dependent on place according to the RAW - stated as "at least several miles across".

Moving outside the designated "place" allows an Aspect to be resummoned within 24 hours eg.

  1. Summon an Aspect in Toldeo and Ablate.

  2. Fly to Cordoba or use a Leap of Homecoming effect. Summon Aspect and Ablate.

  3. Repeat while travelling throughout Mythic Europe.

Alternatively, just wait 24 hours - this still allows ~90 attempts per season.

I didn't specify that the loophole need be abused in a single day (although i suspect someone would try).

Regards,

Jarkman

I agree with some of that. Especially the part about ppl trying to use a loophole :slight_smile:.

I really just mentioned it above because the twin Daimonic Aspects fighting each other would be impossible. The couldn't show up on the same day to the same place by any means if I am reading the RAW right.

Not sure if you could ablate ... only if the Daimon wanted to let you and even then the effects might fade. As an SG I woudl really think about that one as a big big loophole. Also not sure why a Daimon would let you Ablate ... but hey that could very well be a house rule thing too.

EDIT: Just had a good thought. If the ablation is possible, a Daimon might allow it as a reward for cultic service. If I am reading it right it is simply impossible to affect a Daimon from the mortal realm ... but what a great way to for the Daimon to get a fairly potent cult going. Sorcerers are pretty competent for non-gifted folk.

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I think all the loopholes can be avoided by ruling that, since the Aspect is just a temporary avatar spiritual construct that the Daimon can create and re-absorb at will, it lacks enough "substance" to be gainfully Ablated.

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Yet it has enough substance to act as a familiar if a magus posesses the correct Virtue, can use any of the powers/grant the boon of one of its abilities an otherwise acts exactly like a separate creauture in all other ways...

I'm not convinced.

Any "official" clarification Neil, since they're your baby?

Thanks,

Jarkman

As I see it, the aspect is a sort of living arcane connection to the daimon. You can summon it, bind it, or command it as an extension of the daimon, but any Might it has is "on loan" from the daimon. If you ablate it, it's like you're casting Daimon's Eternal Oblivion on it-- you are essentially destroying some of its magical essence, and as a side effect you pull some of that essence into yourself. I think that in response the daimon would cancel the aspect, and I think it makes sense that the daimon can do this faster than the sorcerer can suck away its Might. So, it's an effective way to drive off an aspect, but it wouldn't gain you any Ablation Points.

I also don't think a daimon would allow anyone to do this, even a loyal cultist, because it's such a hateful thing. In my opinion, Ablation is the most evil power in the Infernal book-- even other demons loathe it and the power it gives the sorcerer over them. It basically transforms the sorcerer into a demon. I can't imagine any justifiable uses of such a disgusting art. :slight_smile:

I hope you never botch any of those ablation rolls man :wink:

Xavi

But what stories it would tell! :smiling_imp: Ahhh sweet hybris!!

I'll go with the view that Ablating Daemons is "twinking" and say instead that they lack real substance.

That the Daemonic Familiar has a vis-fueled Pact with a magus which provides a stronger and more real link. I would say that any Aspect can expend temporary Might on normal things - that's no worse than fatigue-less casting which magi can manage

Thanks to all for their clarifications.

But would the same arguments seem to apply to Binding or could you bind an Aspect of a Daimon (but not the actual Daimon), in effect a coerced Pact/familiar bond?

Cheers,

Jarkman