Decreasing a spells level in a lab, possible?

I do not know if I am misremembering things, but I think I read somewhere that you could lower the level of a spell, so some degree, by spending time in the lab working on it. I do not know if I am just dreaming or where I read it. Either way, I can't find it again, so can someone help?

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That was possible in the 1st edition IIRC.
Not currently an option.

Sorry.

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Ah ok, well good to know I was not loosing my mind at least =)

It was called "Spell Optimization" and the rules can be found in the Wizard's Grimoire, Revised Edition (for ArM4). These rules have not been ported to ArM5.

However! In ArM5, arcane experimentation on a lower-level spell can yield (with a lot of luck) the oomph of a higher-level one: roll an 11 (Modified Effect) on the Extraordinary Results Chart on p.109, followed by a 4-6 "The spell or effect’s range, duration, target, or potency is increased". So, if you want to obtain a Level 15 Pilum of Fire, you could instead experiment on a Level 15 version that works at R:Touch, until you obtain a Modified version that works effectively as the standard Pilum (at R:Voice) but is still only Level 15.

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Thank you, I have top take a look at that. =)

Alternatively, you can consider Original Research from HoH: True Lineages, a minor breakthrough could lower base casting requirement by 5 levels. (Your SG's interpretation of this may vary.)

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In thenlastvgame that I ran, we chose to interpret the experimentation table results of increase/decrease of the spell level as affecting the levelmof thenspell being developed.

So a pilum of fire with the ideal roll could end up being one effective magnitude cheaper.

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I was wondering about this, too. If I make a spell to have someone be hit with a lightning bolt (not from my fingers), it should be easier outside, easier than that if it's cloudy, even easier if there is a storm going on, and easier still if it's a lightning storm. In other words, it should be possible to make a spell that is easier in stages if the environment is helping you along. I would think that this would involve crafting the hardest version, and building in factors that gradually increase the ease.

Incantation of Lightning has magnitudes for how unnatural it is, so it's already easy to design spells that assume a more natural event and don't have those magnitudes. The downside is that they then only work in a lightning storm (or whatever).

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Conveniently, creating the kind of weather conducive to this happens to also be CrAu...

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Just so we're clear... The book doesn't actually say this. All p. 109 say on the matter is: "The spell or effect’s range, duration, target, or potency is increased". This could also be taken to mean that while you were working on a level 15 spell (to continue the above example), you end up with a higher level spell (eg. a level 20 spell), while "only" putting in the effort of inventing a level 15 spell, possibly repeatedly.

Which is how I would interpret it under the 5th edition.

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It was indeed unclear, and I opened a thread over 10 years ago (missing an even older one on the same topic) to ask for a clarification. For some reason, I am convinced that a clarification has been made since then, in the sense that you can get spells that are more effective than otherwise possible, but a quick search cannot locate it and I am too lazy to do more :slight_smile:

Update: I could find indirect evidence in support of my thesis. It's in HoH:TL p.23. The example folio has versions of several corebook spells, such as Ball of Abysmal Flame, at the same level as in the corebook, that were included in the Folio "because the inventing magi used experimentation, and
each spell has a beneficial side-affect". Note that adding an extra effect to an Hermetic spell would normally add at least a magnitude, but that's not the case for these spells. To me this seems strong, though perhaps not definitive, evidence that when arcane experimentation modifies a spell, the level (and Arts) stay unchanged.

I still do have the nagging impression that everything was made clearer somewhere.

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Beneficial side effect could mean "smell nice".
Not exactly what I'd call evidence :wink:

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Perhaps not if that was what made the Colentes Arcanorum include the relevant Lab Texts in the Folio to the exclusion (presumably) of more useful stuff.

Let me look at it from another angle. Suppose you are investing a level 20 effect in an enchanted device to take advantage of the last 20 levels of "free" space. You experiment, and you get a Modified Effect that increases the range, duration etc. of the effect. Under my interpretation the result is obvious - you fill the device, and you get a slightly more powerful effect than you ought to have got. Under your interpretation, what happens?

Presumably. Technically, I merely pointed out that Beneficial side effect can mean (almost) anything. And "smells nice" would be an interesting side effect for something that tends to leaving thing smelling burned.

In fact, to me, the words "side effect" imply that it is not the main effect that is changed, but that there is a side effect. Sort of like getting a headache from medicine to cure an infection in your kidneys.

I'd leave that up to the Troupe. Hopefully, I could even get them to provide input and not just leave it up to @Christian_Andersen and myself :-/

In this case, I'd probably ask the player if they wanted to re-roll of waste a season, to be honest.

That being said, I'd also tend to think of whomever decided to do that experiment under those conditions, as maybe not the brightest spoon in the cupboard :wink:

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Errata.

Extraordinary Results (p. 108): Add the following sentence at the end of the first paragraph. "The level of the effect is not changed by any extraordinary result, nor does it gain any requisites. This may result in a spell or effect that is more or less powerful than a conventional Hermetic effect of its level."

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Well, that settles that.

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Actual best and safest way is to have a lab with +10 warping

Invent your spell as normal. Then roll and extra die. Odd you get a side effect which in many cases can be seen as giving you effect a couple of extra magnitudes for free. Even, you roll on modified table and have 30% chance of extra potency.

W

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