Demon's Eternal Oblivion... Arcane Connection

Okay, so I'm all amped up as I'm a Vim specialist able to trip off level 20 DEO spells that pretty well penetrate the same (Might 20).

But what if I invent a new spell which is essentially DEO at Arcane Connection range? Okay, I strip off (level - 10) might from its Might Score each casting, but that's okay, as I'm nowhere near the beastie (it could be anywhere) and by the time he does get to me I can finish him off with a regular version of the spell.

So why doesn't this happen? We know from the Divine and Infernal books that True Names are Arcane Connections. We know they don't expire. We also know that once a Demon's Might Score reaches 0 it's dead... utterly.

Get a few magi together under a Communion and they could take out the Princes of Hell.

I guess, as I think through it all, it does become more difficult to take out the big bad boys like that but really, if you have a mid-range Demon, Might 15-30, once you know its True Name, the game's over: dead Demon.

So, as a SG, I'm keen to know what others think on this. Is this a "problem"?

I dont yet have TMRE or RoP:TI. But as long as there is no surefire way to research every demon's True Name, hence a magus must still rely on Infernal or Divine contacts or books to get one, that does not appear to be a big problem: Hell would usually know whose minions' names are compromised, and just send others if their business includes Hermetics.

A more likely variant of DEO might be the one with R:Sight, which allows mobile and/or sneaky magi better chances to whittle away at powerful demons.

Kind regards,


Demons do not have physical bodies so it is quite difficult (but not impossible) to get arcane connections from them.

Choosing to knock off powerful demons who have not provoked you, very well might result in other powerful demons attacking the covenant out of fear (depending upon the storyguide).

Does DOE kill them or are they banished back to hell?

It sends them to hell to suffer with the rest of the damned (which, to choose from your options, is closest to "kill them")

Meaning, to clarify, that they won't come back.

In fact, it might even be against the Code. Never mind if learning demons' True Names could be considered diabolism, but attacking a demon in circumstances other than in self-defense could bring the wrath of Hell against the Order directly, thus endangering your sodales. At least one magus has been Marched for that crime in the past, if I recall correctly. If a magus wanted to hunt demons from afar with Arcane Connections, he would probably have to do it in secret (and might even receive a visit from the Venatores if word of his interest gets out).

Then there is no point in using DOE with a connection on a demon prince who's rulling over his own little slice of hell as described above. It would.....banish him to hell where he alredy is

The point is that he'll be one of the suffering for all eternity rather than one of the torturers, he'll have no more ability to effect change in the world of the living than any of the other lost souls in that place.

(Arguments could be made that hell is beyond AC range even if it is inside the lunar sphere)

That would make demon-summoning impossible by Hermetic means.

I can easily see a Mystery cult dedicated to gathering grimoires of demon names and DEO-ing them, thus ensuring that any other copy of that grimoire and the true names it contains are rendered permanently harmless.

Such a group would [i]definitely[i] accumulate a Hierarchy score. :smiley:

And remember, there is always the Ritual wildcard: casting a DEO on a demon-prince who's currently in Hell sure sounds like a ritual to me, regardless of how much Might you're actually trying to make it lose. If anything, that gives the demon a chance to drop by and bust your kneecaps. It adds to the drama.

How do you figure? You dont kill him so it would be like poking a caged animal with a stick since in hell he can't affect you anyway. Once someone else summons him up he's going to take his revenge.

Classical lore was it that a banished demon would be unable to enter the earthly plane for a number of years. The more powerful the demon, the longer his banishment. This is pretty much what I'd imagine happens once you've cast a DEO on one...
Using it on one in hell however, sounds like an attempt to take the demon's punishment into your own hands - which might cause someone higher to take notice... Could result in the demon in question being released early to punish the foolish magus...

No, you do kill him. He can't be summoned any more easily than soul of any other sinner consigned to hell, and in the unlikely prospect that you can get the demon's departed spirit (a poor choice of words because the soul is in the same place and so didn't really "depart") up to your location it won't have any special demonic power because it isn't a demon any more. It isn't a demon anymore in the same way that a summoned spirit isn't a person anymore.

OK so just been reading through this thread and a thought occurred to me...

if you have an AC to somebody/thing and are using it to cast spells through, is it possible for the person/thing to cast spells back through the AC to you in effect using his own AC (and the spell being cast through it) as an AC to you?

Would this differ on the target ie touch if the caster is holding, area if in the room?

I don't remeber seeing a question on this in the forum and I havn't got my books with me, any help with reasoning would be greatfully received.


Only in some circumstances, such as if the spell is cast via Opening the Intangible Tunnel, or if the magus has (Sloth's Parma) the Bound Magic flaw or equivalent so that his spell is an AC to him. Or if the circumstances call for it (i.e. GM decision). Furthermore, the fact that something is an arcane connection to you doesn't mean you are an arcane connection to that thing. A lock of your hair is symbolically you, but you are not a lock of your hair, if you see what I mean.

No, it would be Arcane Connection range anyway. At that point, the difference between someone holding the AC or just standing near it is merely cosmetic.

Thanks for clearing that up I seem to have forgotton that an AC is merely a sympathetic connection not an actual mystical thing. Ah well.Though some of the things you mentioned have given me an excellent idea for a story. :smiley: