Development (Summoning and Spirits)

Well, it's a bit "Pink Dot" but you could have a series of different Realm spells : "Make the Demon/Giant/Angel/Faerie's Nose Turn Blue" that would have to penetrate the creature's MR but had no other effect than turning it's nose blue (or whatever for spirits).

It's all a bit silly and gamist as Vortigern points out above - I mean for such a great magic system you have to resort to scissors/paper/rock?

The whole Magic separate to Faerie aspect of the Realms has always irritated me for a while, but things seem to be defining out better in ArM5 than previously to the point where there's a bit more sense to it - I don't have RoP: Magic yet so I'll defer judgement.

I'd prefer a grouping of Divine/Infernal and Magic/Faerie b ut I don't think that escapes the issue here.

Cheers,

Lachie

Well, actually it doesn't seem that Hermetic Magic can per the RAW and I've looked - it's a Lesser HErmetic Limit - "The Limit of the Infernal" (but I'll throw this to the main forum in a moment as a Poll to see how people handle this and see what that generates).

Poll here: viewtopic.php?p=44211#44211

The InVi guidelines on p158 of the corebook are vague but overruled by the Hermetic Limit in any case. I can't find any reference in TMRE or RoP:tI and both the corebook and RoP:tI explicityly state that "demons may not be detected". :frowning:

Yep, I agree - but InVi seems out.

Casting a sufficiently powerful/penetrating Faerie spell to detect a creature's Might then a Magic spell of simialr magnitude seems a really strange/reductionist way of working out whatever is facing you is either Divine (unlikely) or Infernal (a bit contrived) - to be honest the answer you'd probably derive at is "outside Hermetic power" assuming you penetrate and IC you have no way of knowing...

I definitely think it's all a bit too gamist.

An EF based on (Realm) Lore (or perhaps Guile for detecting demons?) seems reasonable (I was working towards this for my sahir draft at one point) but then you still come up against the "demons can pretend to be otherwise" aspect, even if you can set EF for this - I haven't found this in the books so far, which would be a really helpful guidelines.

On one hand you could argue that weak demons should be easy to detect as demons but on the other hand you could say that powerful demons should be more easy to spot as demonic (unless of course they're being deceptive...)

It's a bit of a Catch-22, but a pretty important one to resolve - Hermetic magic not being able to detect demons is a pretty solid point in the game to House Rule around IMO...

BTW - I am totally against the "surprise, CHOMP!" scenario - per the RAW you seem to only potentially attract a demon instead of what you intend if:

  1. you scour a low level Divine aura ie. a twon (place is crawling with minor demons apparently trying to tempt good citizens per RoP:tI p114-115)

  2. you botch a summoning roll, in which case it is a potential outcome

Ludo is probably sensible enough to avoid doing #1 (experience, training) and/or should have some way of recognising a minor demon (Int + Intrigue + ?Heirarchy... I mean it's not like most of the minor demons are subtle or clever in this context, or is that the point of the paradigm?).

I suppose the trick to #2 is to never botch ie. only summon when you really have to and make sure you bargain/command spirits to hang around as retainers and follow your orders for a decent length of time.

Now what are the actuarial odds of botching over a career... :smiling_imp:

Good point - has this been added to the House Rule's thread in the frenzy? (added entry and note to Marko in HR thread)

I think this is a very good point - hence Heirarchy for demons and IIRC I had some modifiers in the sahir draft for "reputation" - a sahir who enslaves lots of Jinn gets a negative Reputation as a "Slaver" which affects bargaining rolls, a sahir who performs "community service" for Jinnikind gets a positive reputation which acts as a (small) modifier to bargain.

I'd argue that similar reputations with Faerie or Divine or Magic could have a similar effect, they just wouldn't be called "Heirarchy". :slight_smile:

I think we're on the same page here, struggling with RAW as they actually complicate rather than stream-line play...

Cheers,

Lachie

How does the troupe feel about realm detection, in in light of recent mainstream threads/polls etc?

How do you all feel about the option of using the 'Agency' rules to depict Ludo's spirits, instead of having ... a lot of individual character builds in that area?

I feel that Realm Detection/Discernment is feasible. As far as portraying spirits as agents, I think that is actually a good idea. It does somewhat limit the maximum nuber of spirits you can control, which is realistic. It also gives you cause to place certain spirits in charge over other spirits, as a means of expanding your influence.

I would lobby that the gift penalty shouldn't apply to his agent cap for the purposes of spirits, only mundane agents. Amusingly enough this would put his agent ( spirit ) cap at ten. ( Presence +1, Leadership +3 ( Spirits ), X 2 )

And yes, he would basically be building his own spiritual 'court' after the normal noble model, with offices and like positions, to fill out all of the usual roles in a court. The agents/factors then would have their own structures/agents beneath them ideally.

Yeah, I understand your desire to lobby, but the rules do say otherwise. Mind you, all spirits also have the Magical Air Flaw, and bother each other too I am sure. Some of them might have the Unaffected by the Gift Quality/Virtue, especially the one who is/was a seer.

Upon rereading some of the gift wordage, and thumbing my copy of ROP: M for second, I think the RAW agrees with you that creatures of might and indeed all things by default are affected by the Gift. ( page 76. ) Though it does have a permissive statement that some are flat out not ( demons in particular ), the default is clearly that things usually should be affected.

I find this rather counter-intuitive, but that may simply be a holdover from my assumptions about the Gift.

I for example was viewing Ludo's spookiness factor to have been generated by a strong occurence of minor spiritual happenings around him. That sort of thing. That the Gift ( and it later being upgraded to a Blatant version. ), and it's effects, was a representation of his 'otherwordliness', and being surrounded by spirits all of the time. i.e. ... he is spooky 'because' he is surrounded by spirits.

The RAW however would have that be a 'spooky guy, so he can't control as many spirits.' ... Counter-intuitive.

Or, worse still.

The gentle gifted jerbiton can control more spirits than the blatant gifted titanoi? Very counter-intuitive.

I think I can buy, though probably not agree, with the RAW stance on the Gift affecting even things with might, if they are basically human or animal things to begin with. If something is a physical human-like creature, but with a given ammount of magic might like the 'atlanteans', the 'People of the Clouds' or some such... the Gift 'may' come into play. I could see that view.

Or a magical stag, being intrinsically afraid of a magus... that makes a certain kind of sense.

But say a Dragon? Should a Dragon be affected by the Gift? I wouldn't think so. Basically I think of the Gift as being a seperator between the Magus and the 'normal' world, and not something that should usually come into play when interacting with the supernatural one. But that appears to have been a misperception, perhaps.

My general feeling is that the more otherworldly something is, the less it should be affected... and spirits are the most otherworldly thing I can think of.

Mmm. More reading of the spirit template, giving them effectively 'the gift' makes sense.

I'm just not liking how this all is coming out to interact on the summoner's end of things. It is making things easier for the non-spooky, play-nice type... rather than the jump in with both feet, aura of spirituality, devoted summoner type. And to me that is a bad thing.

Perhaps a house rule to add the 'unaffected by the gift' trait to all 'spirit' -like entities of all realms, basically like demons?

Not for all spirits, but certainly for some. The way I look at it, spirits freak people out, even other spirits. Knowing magi have Parma and will react more favorably to them may cause them to look on magi more favorably as well. And then the spirits that actually like magi will certainly have the Immunity to the Gift. I think it could be something that quite a few spirits have, but not all of them. Some spirits hate magi because magicians tend to do nasty things with spirits.

I always looked at the gift as more like a "bad vibe" than actual fear or other emotions. The Dragon wouldn't fear you, he just finds you quite unpleasent.

And as far as Jerbiton Necromancers go, LOL, I played one for several years. Though everyone knows me as that Flambeau guy, my longest running personal player character is Constantius of Jerbiton, aka Ulrich Goerung of Lubeck. 4th Edition.

Perhaps an 'Inoffensive to Spirits' virtue would be a wise thing for Ludo to have then. Maybe instead of 'Student of Realm' say?

Hmm. This has got me to thinking actually. I'll have to do some more reading. I might be getting some fire back for this character. Not that I ever lost enthusiasm for the character, but my drive to crunch numbers certainly waned.

LOL, I also get tired of number crunching. Inoffensive to Spirits actually seems like an exceptionally excellent idea. So let it be written, so let it be done!

An excellent idea! (wish I'd thought of it)

That's why I suggested the Agency option - hopefully it allows you to do the bare minimum on the number crunching front while still allowing some development of your "court" (nice analogy).

I think the concept of having spirits dominate/influence other lesser spirits is a good idea to explore further - this is suggested IIRC in the True Name section of RoP:tI or in TMRE in regard to synthemata where learning one True Name can help lead you to others...

Cheers,

Lachie

How much detail is really needed for an agency entry? Or I suppose, for the ones I am looking to make?

I figure normal details as presented in Societates. Name, Relationship, strength 7 nature of that relationship, etceteras. Other details are in Societates. Not Realm and Might as well. I can review Societates and write up a more formal template.

I'd have to reread this as I've been soaking up RoP:Magic here in Oz.

You want to aim for the minimum detail to make it work, to prevent you designing a whole slew of spirits etc (unless some of the other players want to design some of the spirits as Companions using the RoP:Magic rules as a sort of try out of the mechanics - JeanMichelle and Scott (Viola's player) seem pretty good at creating supporting cast).

The "Character Guides" (RoP:M page 31) seem a good basis as I mentioned earlier. They're designed to:

this seems to fit the bill exactly. In essence, pick the major "crunch" bits only, which is IMO only slighty more detailed than the concepts you introduced earlier for your coterie.

Again, I'd suggest basing some of the "grog" spirits on templates/covenfolk examples found in Covenants.

Hope this helps.

Lachie

Yeah, what Jarkmain said :smiley:

(I have been super busy, I gotta catch up)

If a spirit is already controlled by either hermetic compulsion or goetic commanding, can you force it to lower it's resistance and accept the other and pass control between the two methods without having to penetrate?

In the same scenario, can you pass control to another person? Can you pass control to another magus' effect as above?

Can you take something already under control and command it to enter and submit to a circle?

I am unsure. I will research it tonight :slight_smile:

Basically my thinking was along the lines of comparing it to having a magus under mentem control. Can you force them to lower their parma as a concious act? I would tend to think so... and from there assume you could do the same with something else already under your control, depending on the degree of control and the type.

This is my 'retinue' roster so far. It is in need of some revising I think, and isn't fully finished, but should serve 'ok' for now fluff-wise. Any comments or concerns?

  •      Venetian Ghost ( Magic ), Advisor/Chancellor
    
  •      Faerie Airy Spirit of Court of Winds, Courtly Romance
    
  •      Volcano Genus Loci Daimon ( Magic ), Guard/Soldier
    
  •      Ghosts ( Magic ) of a gang of thieves/smugglers, spies
    
  •      Venetian Ghost ( Magic ), Guard/Soldier
    
  •      Sewer/Canals ( Venice ) Genus Loci Daimon ( Magic ), Interrogator/Advisor
    
  •      Roman Ghost ( Magic ), Priest
    
  •      Air Djinn ( Magic ), Assistant/Messenger
    
  •      Earth Djinn ( Magic ), Soldier/Knight
    
  •      Spirit Horse ( Faerie), Mount/Conveyance
    

Mattias Fosari, former Chancellor to the Doge of Venice several generations ago. ( Chancellor )
Magic Might: XX ( Ghost, Magic Realm )
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: Preserved Skull, inscribed with runes. ( Ludovico has researched his birth horoscope as well. ) ( Gold Signet Ring, inscribed with Ludovico's family heraldry. Concealed setting on the underside of the ring (interior surface) is a preserved tooth from the skull, fixed as a connection. )

Mattias discovered the long resting Mattias' remains during the frequent forays into the catacombs and tunnels of Venice of his younger days. Recognizing the markings of both rank and family upon some of the accoutrements which accompanied hastily discarded corpse the young Magus salvaged the skull, preserving it for use in his art. It was a decision he did not regret. Mattias did indeed prove to be former member of the man's own fallen house, a former chancellor to a former Doge who had been stricken with a virulent a fearful disease and been barried with undue haste ( and improper procedure ) thereby. The man's shade was not overly powerful at first after his long rest, yet with the steady service it has rendered to Ludovico it as grown into a spirit of respectable though still not considerable strength. His real value to Ludovico remains what it originally was. Sympathy for a fellow man of the same lineage and his extreme skill in management, statesmanship, and diplomacy acquired during his life. Often the mage speaks for hours with 'his chancellor' and seems to greatly value the ghost's advice. The ghost often urges him however to return to Venice and seek the restoration of his line, and to take vengeance on the house of the Doge that persecuted his family.

He appears as he did during his days at court, a man in his fourties, graying, though still vibrant seeming.

Yasmine, Daughter of the Grand Duke of the North Wind, Faerie Court of Winds. ( The Lady )
Faerie Might: XX ( Air Elemental, Faerie Realm )
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: Ring ( Agate set in silver, finely wrought with the heraldry of her father engraved into the stone. A wisp of her hair was used in it's forging to imbue it with the desired connection.)

A noble faerie of the court of the winds, Yasmine is proud and elegant. With the bearing of the regal fae of high blood that she is, she can seem cold at first. Underneath is the wry wit and boisterous humor of a girl that adores excitement and adventure, despite her father's wishes. First encountered in the Italian countryside 'playing' with a village's small fleet of fishing craft. The Grand Duke at first despised Ludovico as unworthy of the company of his daughter and has sent lesser agents of his court to kill him twice. As the young Magus has, since surviving said attempts obviously ( and sending his retainers back chastened but unharmed ), continued to develop his powers and a quite regal bearing himself the Grand Duke has improved to simply being 'greatly dubious' as to the man's prospects. Yasmine keeps her own feelings to herself, mostly. While unfailingly proper in the high court way, she seems quite fond of Ludovico's company and is as close to the 'lady of the court' in Ludovico's odd group that can be found. Perhaps one day the Grand Duke will consent to a marriage? Unique among Ludo's retinue she is usually not 'bound' to service, but is more of a companion.

She appears as a sidhe lady of breathtaking beauty. Alabaster skin, raven black hair, and violet eyes. She is always dressed formally and conservatively.

Ordobos, the Fellhand of Pompei ( Grand Marshal )
Magic Might: XX ( Fire Elemental, Magic Realm, Spirit of a dormant volcano )
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: Ring ( Ruby set in gold, engraved with images of fire and destruction. Underneath the ruby is a piece of stone from Ordobos' mountain. )

Ordobos was deliberately sought out by Ludovico. Ludovico climbed and summoned Ordobos from his long slumber in the earth on the heights of his mountain itself and there the two parleyed. Ordobos had not been awake in almost an age. He knew that he would return to his slumber when the then young summoner released him. The two reached an accord. Ordobos desired to return to the world and Ludovico desired a strong right arm among his 'Court'. Not a grand conversationalist, but loyal to the summoner who keeps him from his stone-wrought slumber.

Appears as a great flaming minotaur composed of magma.

Valkian & Co. ( 'Agents' )
Magic Might: XX
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: A fine 'ivory' bracelet of many links, each link made from the bone of a diffent one of the ghosts.

Valkian was a thief who ran a decent racket and gang in the underworld of Venice for some time. Actually he was rather profitable in his trade. His problem was that his operation was not sanctioned by Rellantali. Ludovico orchestrated and lead the assault that climaxed with him killing Valkian by his own hand. He had the bodies burned after he salvaged the bones that now constitute the bracelet he now wears and serves as the means by which he usually exerts his influence over them. There are a total of twelve shades tied to the bones that compose the bracelet, Valkian and his gang. All hate Ludovico, but serve him under binding from time to time. Frequently he uses them as spies, observing things and then reporting back to him.

Young unwashed ruffians, typical thieves in appearance.

Araris, former bodyguard of the Doge of Venice, several generations ago ( The Hand )
Magic Might: XX ( Ghost, Magic Realm )
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: Ring, Topaz set in silver with Araris' heraldry carved therein. Concealed tooth setting. Also possesses skull.

Araris served with the noble Mattias and died of the same disease, buried in the same haste. While not a former bloodkin to Ludovico he sees a new purpose in his unlife in serving the man alongside his old comrade Mattias... who so is so obviously devoted to the summoner. Araris frequently acts as Ludovico's spiritual bodyguard now, as he once did the Doge. He is a cany guardsman, wary and well trained. Occasionally Ludovico has channeled him to partake of his skills directly and thus charge into battle himself. Araris disapproves strongly of this later action, believing it to unduely endanger his lord.

A crisp rather stiff man with long mustaches and wearing the accoutrements of a venetian ducal guard.

Grimald, Keeper of the Canals ( Ignoble )
Magic Might: XX ( Genus Loci Daimon, Magic Realm)
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: Ring, Star saphire set in silver, engraved with a salamander seal. Contains a stone from the bottom of a venetian canal.

Grimald usually rather resents being summoned by anyone, yet Ludo's power was not to be denied. Despite Grimald's sometime resentment the two have come to a working relationship, given that usually the tasks Ludo uses him for are to the somewhat malign spirit's liking anyway. This perhaps is the only reason Grimald doesn't totally hate Ludo, which perhaps he did when he was first being summoned. Perhaps he still does and simply hides his feelings? He has served a variety of capacities, but is often given tasks associated with the capture, torture, and interrogation of prisoners. Not so secretly lusts for Yasmine and takes great delight and pride in his great ability at torturing into compliance the prisoners given to him by Ludovico. Many of his tortures feature water, though often his teeth and claws and simple degradations are part of his repertoire. Sometimes called upon simply for his powers over his element.

The spirit of the often filthy canals of venice Grimald appears a giant half-toad half-man creature that is immensely fat and quite repulsive. He smells rather strongly as well. Possessed with unusually thin long arms and clawed fingers while having short, squat, very flabby legs and torso.

Cornelius Sirco of Patavium, Priest of Mercury
Magic Might: ( Ghost, Magic Realm )
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: Skull and Ring, Onyx and Gold bearing a stylized symbol of Hermes.

Serves as the court's 'spiritual advisor', much as the christian clergy do to mundane courts. Basically has been summoned and bound to fulfill the office he had in life, and seems to have taken to it with some verve. Frequently rails against christianity and sometimes urges or counsels Ludovico in a manner that is quite out of touch with the modern world and 'very' pagan. Ludo seems to agree in spirit a great deal of the time but temper his decisions with the more moderate voice of Mattias... thus the two ghosts don't get along very well. Cornelius lived during a period of prosperity for the romans and is rather upset that the empire has fallen and the christians he used to feed to lions are now ruling the world. Appears in traditional roman priestly garb, an older man with a shaven head.

Kartesh Bassall, Keeper of the Ruins of Menzanar
Magic Might: XX ( Air Djinn, Magic Realm )
Powers:
Fixed Arcane Connection: Ring

The spirit of an abandoned palace kept by a now defunct Caliph which Ludo once explored on an entirely different quest. Ludo employs him as his personal assistant and messenger. The very clever Kartesh has a variety of travelling and divinitory abilities at his disposal for the means of finding the intended recipient of a message and delivering it. He is not however capable of carrying a great deal of cargo or other persons with him. Known for his seemingly unique ability to keep Yasmine in line when Ludo is not around.

He appears as a formally robed arab man, turban included, also wearing a fair amount of jewelry and bearing a few minor weapons. He does not have the appearance of a warrior, rather a socialite of great yet restrained mirth.

Arash, Emir of X
Magic Might: XX ( Earth Djinn, Magic Realm )
Powers:

X, X
Magic Might: XX ( Faerie? Horse Spirit )
Powers:

Unless I'm wrong, MR from Might is "always on".

Another magus... You'd have to beat both the creature MR and the magus's spell penetration, IMO.
Or... The creature would obey both magi, unless order conflicts, in which case it'd obey the spell with more penetration. Like, order an iddle creature controled by another magus, no problem. Tell it to kill the magus while he tells it to no, it'll be a penetration contest.

If you control something, you can order it to enter a circle, although, if the circle is active, it'll need to beat its penetration. But you could order it to enter a circle, and then cast a ward upon he circle.