Diotima ex Jerbiton

[Halancar]

I was trying to decide what to do with my 75 build points, and taking a good look at buying a Bookstand of Hespera (Covenants p.121), and I suddenly realized that I may well be able to claim lab bonus for my talisman: I designed it to be helpful for a scholar, but that would neatly carry over into laboratory bonus (as per Covenants p.121).

Here are the effects I have:
Thoughts Distinctly Burned, ReAq 20 (writes words as Diotima speaks them). A +2 bonus to the Text specialization seems indicated
Chamber of Summer Breezes, CrAu(Ig) 20 (keeps the air warm and dry). Magical (Superior) Heating virtue (+1 Health, +1 Aesthetics, +1 Ignem)
The Welcome Addition of False Sunlight, CrIg 20 (creates light). Magical (Superior) Lightning virtue (+1 Aesthetics; +1 Texts, +1 Imaginem)

Hide to Parchment, ReAn 20
Binding the Mundane Codex, ReAn(all) 15
Not too sure about those last ones. Sure, they help in creating books, but that's hardly a laboratory activity. I might be able to claim a -1 upkeep for the first one, but that's probably better used as a covenant cost-saving device...

[Jonathan.Link]

I'm uncomfortable with this. There's a difference between a magus's talisman and an item designed to be used in the lab. And even though items can be installed as Free Virtues, which take little time to do in the scope of the season, I think some time would needed in this instance. It should take a day to install or uninstall the talisman into the lab. While installed, she can't use it for any other purpose, because it breaks the mystical connection to her lab that provides the lab bonus.
A day to install or uninstall may preclude Diotima from having access to her talisman, if whatever she has to do is something where time is of the essence.
That's about the only way I'd be comfortable with it working, and even then...

[Halancar]

Mystical connection ? Now you're interpreting the rules

I can safely say there is in Diotima's lab a special place reserved for her Talisman, an ornate pedestal of carved wood, where it may rest in the perfect position for its many uses as well as being safe from laboratory experiments. I call it Diotima's desk I'll even add a special quill holder if you wish, and take a few days to properly set it all up And I can safely say Diotima will never enter her laboratory without her talisman, and she can then put it in its proper position. And cough that talisman was designed to help Diotima around books, which are an important part of a laboratory (or hers, anyway). If a quill that takes dictation can't give a specialization in Texts, what does ?

Now, the fact is that the talisman's effects are of Sun duration or use related, so I could see an argument for Warping/Safety penalties, similar to that incurred by casting a useful non-ritual spell in the lab (sooner or later, from sheer boredom, the caster is going to make a mistake, like forgetting all the lights go out at sundown). But cannot be used ? No benefit ? I could cast those exact same spells each day and claim the benefits !

[Jonathan.Link]

Free Virtues are gained in a day. They should need to be removed in a day. It's your talisman, not an item created specifically for the lab.

[Lamech]

I would assume that magic items don't really need to be "installed". You just need to have them when you work on lab stuff. When you aren't working you can just carry it out with you. Its "usually a day or so"

[jebrick]

But if you want to count it to lab totals, you need to install it.

[Jonathan.Link]

Talismans are explicitly excluded from lab totals in the talisman section of the main rule book. Covenants details that free virtues need a day to be installed. Covenants also suggests that magic items are appropriate for free virtues. A day to install and also uninstall should be reasonable an appropriate.

[Halancar]

Attunements bonus from talisman are excluded from lab total. They only apply to casting totals. That says nothing about the effects instilled in the talisman.

Oh, and:

@Covenants p.121

if the effect duplicates an existing Laboratory Virtue or Flaw, then the item simply grants that Virtue or Flaw to the lab. It is gained immediately and has no space cost; apply its stated modifications to Characteristics or Specializations, as usual.

I don't accept the argument that I can't use my talisman can't give me bonus because it wasn't designed for lab use, because it pretty much was, just look at the effects in it. The installation argument, I can accept however, reluctantly, if the above quote doesn't satisfy (I do realize it contradicts the rules on acquiring free virtues). In which case I'll just turn to next section in the book, Spells for Laboratories: oh look, I'm using my talisman to cast spells every day in my lab to help me, as per the rules, now does that work ? (yes, yes, I know it'll hurt Warping or Safety).

[Jonathan.Link]

How does one get bonuses to the lab? Virtues. How does one put virtues in the lab? Install them. How does one get free virtues associated with magic items created for the lab. Install them. I'm traveling, away from easily reading my books. But I do recall that free virtues have a time cost for getting the virtues effects. Typically it is one day, which in the scope of the season usually isn't an issue. If you want the bonus all the time without the hassle make an item that stays in the lab.

[Halancar]

Here's what you are looking for:

@Covenants p.113

Free Virtues have no space and (usually) no seasonal construction requirement. They may be gained in a day or so, if the relevant materials are procured, or if the relevant circumstances are satisfied.

But here we are arguing semantics, the exact meaning of may in that context, or for that matter install (some magic items are designed to be ambulatory, see the Bookstand of Hespera or the Tireless Servant p.121, not to mention the Crown of Hermes), what other passages of the rules on supernatural virtues and flaws, on magic items. For that matter a familiar provides lab bonus too, spelled out in both AM5 and Covenants, and it's listed among the Supernatural Virtues too, yet I'm fairly sure most familiars follow their magi around rather than staying in the lab. But let me rather tell you a story:

Diotima enters her lab, like most mornings. She fans the air with her quill and calls Ζέφυρος, and a warm breeze goes round the lab, taking the chill and humidity out of the air. She goes toward four circles engraved in the walls, trace their shape with the quill, and calls Φως, and four lights illuminate the Lab, four perfect lights that do not flicker and drive away all shadows. She then goes to her desk, sets up parchment and ink inside an engraved circle, again trace the circle with her quill, leave the quill inside and calls Γραφή, and the quill animates and starts writing every word she says while Diotima works around the lab.

Call it using a dedicated magic items, or using spells (Spells for Laboratories, p.122), surely that quill is helping Diotima go through her day of lab work ? The only real difference, rule-wise, is that using spells daily carries a Safety or Warping penalty, and that spells cannot be used to gain a bonus in the Arts of the spell (because obviously the magus has already mastered them that far). But having them enchanted eliminates the risk of botching through sheer boredom, and my spell effects are fairly localized, so Warping seems less likely.

[Jonathan.Link]

There is also language in the Covenants book that magi shouldn't receive benefits for spells they cast. Using a talisman or item not permanently installed in a lab shouldn't be any different. I've suggested that you can achieve this for a day to install it and a day to remove it or craft an item to provide the bonus. I can, if necessary, provide quotations when I get back to my books.

[Lamech]

@Jonathan.Link

There is also language in the Covenants book that magi shouldn't receive benefits for spells they cast.

No, it actually says pretty much exactly the opposite. In fact, it explicitly states that spells help in the same way as items. The only exception is spells, that are cast by the magus, and require no vis can't provide bonuses to the arts that cast them. So if a maga has a creo terram spell, that she casts herself and requires no vis spell it won't increase creo, or terram. If however someone else casts it, or it requires vis it can add such a bonus. In addition, this creo terram spell could add a bonus to the perdo specialization.

Using a talisman or item not permanently installed in a lab shouldn't be any different.

I agree 100%!

[Jonathan.Link]

Chapter and verse?

[Jonathan.Link]

I ask because what I recall is something about increasing the warping score and spells cast can never improve a LT of the same technique or form. There's a whole section of spells for labs and it's there. Like I said I'm without my books, so this is from memory.

[Lamech]

@Jonathan.Link

I ask because what I recall is something about increasing the warping score and spells cast can never improve a LT of the same technique or form. There's a whole section of spells for labs and it's there. Like I said I'm without my books, so this is from memory.

Page 122. Spells can help in the lab, its only a fairly specific subset of spells that have trouble with it. Not increasing the LT of the same tech/form is only part of it. Ritual spells can increase the LT of the same technique/form as can something coming from someone other than the maga. And spells do increase warping or decrease safety.

[Halancar]

Here you go. I just left out the specific example.

@Covenants

Spells may be employed to assist in the lab. Ritual spells can be cast once for permanent effect, or more minor spells used more often for maintenance and comfort. The appropriate modifications to the lab’s statistics can be determined in the same way as for items, above.
However, there are disadvantages to the usage of non-Ritual spells. Casting such spells on a daily or monthly basis can become tiresome, and they may have unpredictable side effects. As a rule of thumb, for each such spell that is employed regularly, either add one to the lab’s Warping Characteristic or subtract one from its Safety.
For the sake of game balance, a further restriction also applies to the use of non-Ritual spells in the lab. A magus can never gain a bonus to Lab Totals (either
from General Quality or a Specialization) by casting spells that use the same Arts as those in the Lab Total. For example, [...]. A magus undertaking a season of lab work involving [those Arts] might already be presumed to be doing such things, and his proficiency with that Art is already figured into the Lab Total.

So going back to the effects I had, if they count as regular spells rather than a magical item:
Thoughts Distinctly Burned, ReAq 20 (writes words as Diotima speaks them). +2 Text, -1 Safety
Chamber of Summer Breezes, CrAu(Ig) 20 (keeps the air warm and dry). Magical (Superior) Heating virtue: +1 Health, +1 Aesthetics, [strike]+1 Ignem[/strike] no bonus to Ignem, and +1 Warping
The Welcome Addition of False Sunlight, CrIg 20 (creates light). Magical (Superior) Lightning virtue: +1 Aesthetics; +1 Texts, +1 Imaginem, -1 Safety

I chose safety over warning for the first and third because they are very localized magics that shouldn't affect the results of work magically (but might fail at a critical time if Diotima isn't careful). The magically created air in the second does circulate throughout the lab, so +1 Warping seems more appropriate. Although I must say, using an item rather than actual spells shouldn't be quite as dangerous... which is why I'd prefer the talisman counted as magic item.

[Halancar]

Build Points (partial)

Nομική ιστορία του δικαστηρίου Θηβαίο (Legal History of the Theban Tribunal), by Ausculator ex Guernicus. Summa, Code of Hermes, L5Q10. This codex is written in Classical Greek, and contains a record of all the cases brought before the Theban Tribunal, together with a discussion of the legal principles and precedents involved. Ausculator ex Guernicus (Sundered Eagle p.68) is the nominal author, although much of the material has been taken from various works over the centuries (which explains why the quality is 'only' 10, below other works by this author). Diotima obtained a copy, officially to translate it into Latin, but also to study it at her leisure. 25 points

Laboratory Text for the spell Ink of Noblest Metals, MuTe(Aq) 20, Covenants p.97, Latin, 4 points
Laboratory Text for the ritual spell Binding the Hermetic Codex ReAn(var) 20, Covenants p.97, Latin, 4 points
Laboratory Text for the spell Cloak of Eagle Feathers, MuCo(An) 30 (as Cloak of Black Feathers, AM5 p.131, but transforms into an eagle), Latin, 6 points
Laboratory Text for the spell Wizard's Range Boost, MuVi 30, Latin, 6 points
(see the description for Wizard's Boost, AM5 p.160, which mentions the existence of this spell)
R: Touch, D: Mom, T: Ind
You cast this spell as another spell of a level inferior or equal to 25 is cast. The Range of the other spell increases one category.

Jewelry (mostly gold with amethysts, rubies, garnets and sapphires) worth 50 pounds of silver, 5 points
Purple goods (dyes, silk, ink, parchment) worth 50 pounds of silver, 5 points

5 pawns of Creo Vis, 1 point
5 pawns of Muto Vis, 1 point

I'm open for suggestions concerning the rest of the points. Also I'm not too clear on whether these points come on top of a fully functional covenant, representing things the magi are bringing with them, or whether they are part of the covenant's design (in which case we need more vis sources urgently, and more basic lab texts).

[jebrick]

Some you bring with you and some, like vis sources, are part of the covenant. Specialist are members of the covenant. Silver and vis stocks are what you are bringing and can be given to the Covenant or not. Mostly, it is giving everyone some input to the covenant.

[Halancar]

Oh, then I need some input from the other players regarding the books and texts, to make sure I'm not the only one who's interested

[Jonathan.Link]

I would think, that should we ask for it from the Tribunal, that a book on the Code of Hermes should be relatively easy to acquire. It won't be in Greek, but that appears to be a problem only for Ophelia.