Discern Own Illusions and Sense Spells

I have a number of related questions about these subjects. I couldn’t see answers to these on the forum though I may have missed something. Here are the specific cases:

  1. I have cast Disguise of the Transformed Image on three of our grogs, so they all look like a princess we are trying to prevent from being kidnapped. If I cast Discern Own Illusions, can I tell the three grogs apart? I.e. can I see their real appearances under the illusion? (It's clear that I can tell them from the real princess.)
  2. I have also cast Veil of Invisibility on a guard, so he can keep watch for kidnappers. Can I see where he is?
  3. I have a companion and I want him to be able to tell which grog is which too. Is there a L20 InIm spell Discern My Friend’s Illusions, like Discern Own Illusions but range Touch? It seems from the rules that this is allowed, but I want to check as I don’t think there are any sample spells in the rulebook that grant senses to another person.
  4. Now suppose I want all my companions to be able to see through the illusions. There is a specific rule that granting a magical sense to many people requires Muto Mentem magic. So this spell would be a Mu(In)Me(Im) spell, target Group, and presumably level 30. Have I got this right? What’s the reason for this rule? It seems a very puzzling special case. Is it there for play balance reasons?

Veil of Invisibility and similar isn't an illusion, so there is nothing to see through. PeIm in that case destroys the visible species so there is nothing that the eye can detect.

There is the General guideline for detecting illusions that can be used for spells cast on yourself or others, according to the normal rules for magical senses. But no convenient low-level guideline like the one to see through your own illusions.

  1. I believe it's yes.

  2. I'd say no. You'd want some kind of InCo spell for that.

  3. Granting senses is MuMe with In[Fo] requisites, as you say below. I believe at least 1 mag for each, Intellego and Form, would be needed... but not sure about which MuMe guideline should be used. You'd need range touch indeed.

  4. Baseline, +2 group, +1 In, +1 Me, +1 Touch, + X duration. So, certainly higher than lvl 30. I think the requirement for MuMe with InFo requisites makes sense. Granting abilities or properties something doesn't have is Muto + requisites. Giving yourself magical senses with Intellego only is the exception to the general rule.

I was wondering if PeIm doesn't count as an illusion for this purpose, that's part of the point of my question.

So do you believe Discern the Images of Truth and Falsehood would let you see someone invisible? I'm unsure because that uses the phrase "created or altered", which would also seem to exclude PeIm effects.

If Discern Own Illusions can't see someone you've made invisible, would that be a reasonable extra guideline to add? (Meaning, a similar level of spell could be researched, but it's a separate project.)

I'd say no InIm T:Vision spell can allow you to see invisible things, because there is nothing to see.

I don't think it makes much sense. InIm detects species. PeIm destroys species. Simply put, there isn't anything left to detect. You need some way to circumvent the need for the destroyed species.

Use InCo directly, InIg to get a thermal vision, cast MuIm at the target to change sound species into iconic species, InAu or InTe to discern the location... etc, etc.

The thing is, with PeIm style invisibility there is no illusion to see through. The species leaving the invisible person/object are destroyed at the source, so they never reach the viewer.

Contrast this with actual illusions where you either just create species out of nothing, or alter the species emitted by an object. Then there is something for a viewer to see, and something that can be seen through.

InIm effects would not be able to let you see an invisible thing.

Okay, I get it. But I think that means you're both answering "yes" to my first question - if I Muto the images, I can not only see that the illusion is an illusion, I can see the original images too? This is a little stronger than "seeing through" an illusion.

So I think you're saying this is a L30 spell with two requisites + range touch, and Mu Me requisites are needed when you give anyone else any magical sense (and "see illusions" is no different from "make a sense unhindered by the air" etc). On the one hand, this is more consistent with the question 4 case than my initial opinion. On the other hand, this doesn't seem to be what p.114 of the rule book says: it specifically says "many people at once", not "other people". That's what was puzzling me - and still is, to be honest.

Yes, it could well be higher level! Sometimes a requisite is free, but probably not in this case. (I didn't worry about it much because this already seemed far too high level to be worth it.)

Oh, and I appreciate that there are other ways to see invisible people. I guess I'm trying to understand what InIm can do, in particular.

Well, the spell does say that your illusions become transparent. So I'd expect you to see the real and false images somehow superimposed, just as Discern Images of Truth and Falsehood.

You are correct. I had overlooked that. Humm... Honestly, there is no reason for granting senses to many targets to be any different from granting senses to only one target. Either they both should have requisites, or they both shoudn't.

I'd still be inclined to say at minimum Muto should be required in all cases to grant senses. I'd explain Mentem with "you need to change how the mind of the affected target(s) interprets the information he(they) get from the altered sense", but that's just me making sense of the rules the best way I can.

TBH here is were an example of granting magical senses would be helpful. The closest we have is MuAn guideline 25 "give an animal a magical ability", but no example in the corebook.

That's because a sense spell uses a sensory target, which is incompatible with group. Granting a sense to someone else with Touch is fine if you don't need group.

  1. should work.

Now to 2.

You should - but it is tricky.

PeIm on visual images doesn't just leave a hole of impenetrably black shadow instead, but also replaces the visible images carried in light (see HoH:S p.61ff Species) by those of the surroundings. These replacements are illusions that should be detected by Discern Own Illusions.

  1. is an ArM5 p.113f Magical Sense with T: Vision, R: Touch (or higher).

  2. is indeed a Magical Sense, too, but as it targets several people, by p.114 is a Muto Mentem spell with Intellego Imaginem requisites. The reason for this rule is, that the spell's Target can't be Vision. So this is tricky, too.

Not in general, no. HoH:S talks about "transparency" illusions that work as you describe, but they are more complicated than just destroying all species an object generate.
Invisibility would not leave any impenetrable black shadow, since it does not destroy any other species arriving from that general direction. (It does leave ordinary shadows, since blocked light will still be blocked)

Since (HoH:S p.61ff) Species are carried by light, "species arriving from that general direction" can't be carried through an intransparent target of Veil of Invisibility. For an onlooker those images covered by the image of the spell's target would still not be visible, unless they - not the light carrying them - are actively transported by the spell around its target.

Otherwise an onlooker would see an intransparent black hole in her field of vision, replacing the image made invisible to her: something quite different from (ArM5 p.146) "completely undetectable by normal sight".
This holds also, if there is light falling onto all sides of the target and shadows cast by the target are minimal.

Reading HoH:S p61ff carefully there is no mention at all of PeIm magics replacing or altering any species. Nor is it mentioned in the core rule book's sections on Imaginem.
Which makes sense, since Perdo isn't used for creating or changing things - that's Creo or Muto.

On the contrary, such effects are explicitly described as destroying species. Only variations is if all species are destroyed, or just those traveling in a certain direction or towards a specific observer.

"A magus making a dagger
invisible is destroying its capacity to create
optic species." HoH:S p63

The guidelines for PeIm in core are all of the form "Destroy an object’s ability to affect " Which should mean preventing it from sending out species of the corresponding type, since species are how objects affect senses.

is nowhere in ArM5 or HoH:S specified as the only function of PeIm on its target.

From my arguments above, just magically doing so would - by the rules of ArM5 and HoH:S - be not sufficient to create a spell like Veil of Invisibility, which makes its target "completely undetectable by normal sight".

Sorry, this is difficult for me.Czn’t quote, and my left hand is crap and an hindrance. Also, sunglasses because the light was hurting my eyes (I’m a secret vampire)

About detectingsomeone invisible.
There’s this wondeful InIm spell called
The Discerning Eye (and variants). You could cast a touch range variant on your servant. Otherwise, I quite agree with eric t that it won’t help you see their real appearance (I’d use InCo for tha, but you’d see them naked imo)
Hope I helped

Thanks! This does make sense to me as an explanation for the difference (albeit a rather technical one). I'm not sure this is a particularly useful way to build a spell, but there are plenty of other unhelpful spells that can be built. It does suggest that Discern My Friend's Illusions is a legal spell, and one that might be useful.

On the other hand, I can imagine some Bonisagus boffin producing a spell that grants the power to a Group of friends with (Mu)(Me) requisites, and being very excited that they've proved it possible, albeit at a very high level. Possibly they even got it into the next Folio, to the puzzlement of more practical magi.