Discussing the GenCon 2015 panel

Games Discussion Ars Magica
21

Given that the core FATE rules (evilhat.com/home/wp-content/ ... teCore.zip ) appear to be orthogonal to the topics Ars Magica focuses on, there is a good and simple test to ascertain the claimed compatibility.

Open a new thread, and put there a detailed example FATE character, with Extras and all: an Hermetic magus from Mythic Europe, just out of apprenticeship (not Zirk the Arcane, of course). What was needed to describe that character's magic, and to bring him into the Order of Hermes? How far Hermetic magic and FATE rules could really be kept orthogonal? Does that character look appealing?

Cheers

22

I have this feeling that I need to be a wet blanket even though I don't particularly want to.
And I probably shouldn't even be saying this, because I have only superficial knowledge/understanding of FATE, but I have to.

I'm hesitant to adopt FATE, based solely on what is being said about it. By its fans and supporters.
Simply because I can hear myself and far too many people of my age saying almost exactly the same things 20 years ago about Storyteller, and what a strong and wonderfully flexible, indeed just AWESOME, storyteller was. How we lauded as genius things that are now called 'bad game design'.

FATE is simple, but is it simpler than rolling a handful of dice and counting how many show a certain number or higher? No - it is explicitly more complex than that.
FATE is flexible, but really, so's GURPS, and how many people do you see extolling the virtues of GURPS these days?
The list just goes on.

And yes, I do realise I've just outed myself as a cranky old man. Hopefully I'll grow out of it. :wink:

23

FATE lacks the granularity to handle long term character advancement book study etc. I'm a big fan of FATE and run two good campaigns with it but it is a poor fit for the current split perspective/power level/lab work and seasonal play aspects of Ars Magica

24

Incidentally we have a panel dedicated to this at Grand Tribunal and you really should all come (though Timothy has a pretty good reason to not make it living on the opposite side of the world!) www.grandtribunal.org

25

I never thought of GURPS as a storyteller game, it's a simulationist's wet dream though, since you can use rules (and there are a ton of them) to model the real world. Bsaically, to play GURPS, you have to jettison a whole bunch of stuff that you decide that you aren't going to use, because to use it means it slows you down... It's a reductive system.
FATE is much more abstract than that and it's something that gives player characters much more narrative control over a story. But, as much as I've seen of it, FATE requires troupes to add to the system to flesh it out, an additive game.

Ars Magica has commonalities with both games, since one can simulate years of advancement and create a ton of things. Ars Magica also, supposedly, gives a lot of narrative control to magi characters, with the concept for story flaws at the character level and hooks at the covenant level. Those are the kinds of stories that are supposed to be the reason for pulling the character out of his lab.

I don't understand how Ars Magica is orthogonal to FATE, indeed, I don't even understand the usage of the phrase in the context. The idea of creating a FATE character that is a Hermetic Magus, is putting the cart before the horse (maybe the horse is orthogonal to the cart, to boot), because there is no magic system in place that can handle such a character, so one must design the magic system.

26

Can anyone point out an Rp game which moved away from its own mechanics to another system and gained prolonged new life? I'm having trouble.

Negatives from my gaming past are Traveller went to Gurps and d20 and I disliked both ports. Star Wars went d20 which was better but not fixed. But then I liked Gurps when playing Cyberpunk, Shadowrun, and Rifts, probably because it does firearms well but medieval weapons poorly imho.
Aside - I'm torn between wanting an highly abstracted/story combat system in most cases, but desiring a granular approach from the magic. Most of my regular played like deep combat mechanics. Deathwatch has great combat but a terrible set of stats.
I'm torn by the idea as I've grown to love the Ars stat block and mechanics.

I've downloaded a Fate sampler to take a look. If it's too shallow in the stats then CJ's point on advancement depth is a real concern. Who else has played it a lot?

27

Any RPG is a storytelling system if you want it to be. Some you just have to fight a little bit harder.
But the point of mentioning GURPS was that a system being flexible and universal isn't the same as the system being good.

Mmmmm, sweet memories of myself mouthing those words 20 years ago, and thinking that automatically made it a work of genius.

Which would presumably being the point of such a project as we might undertake here to make an Ars Magica - FATE constallation, no?

I'm not saying it couldn't work.
I'm not saying FATE is bad - I'm insufficiently familiar with it to make such a statement.
But I am worried about getting too cozy with FATE, simply based on what it's fans say.

Interesting. Thank you.

28

I have always been a person who loved games with good systems. Ars Magica has a great system for magic. Best I've seen in any game. The problem with trying to make it work in a game where magic is not the focal point would delude the things that make Ars great. Much as Champions is a great system for making superheros and a poor system to run a fantasy game in.

Taking the Noun-Verb mechanic ( with appropriate levels for effects) would work great in other systems that are not overly complex ( unlike Champions and GURPS ). Fitting it something like GumShoe would allow a game setting like Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London or even Jim Butcher'sDresden Files world(already a Fate system). They system fits into 70-80% of Harry Potter magic world. The last 20-30% woulds be quite a stretch. The Window Gaming system is fairly simple and could easily have the Ars Magic system bolted on.

29

Ditto

Interestingly, almost everyone I've discussed it with agree that the d6 version was better, including the ones who aren't old enough for nostalgia to have rose-tinted their glassed on the matter.

What amazes me is that people consider it an RPG. Having read it, it came across as a 40k version of the tabletop game Descent. And it turned out that playing it was almost exactly as expected.

Agreed.

30

Sure it is. And any system can be used to tell great stories. The point being that FATE puts a lot of that into the hands of the players, but GURPS does not. I'm not necessarily advocating FATE here, I responded to Timothy's OP with FATE, because it sure seemed to me what he was describing.

Can FATE used by a stingy DM? Sure. Where systems fail is that they are designed by people (Edit: and run by other people). But those same people can work to improve the system, rather than being nostalgic.

31

If one concept relates to another concept by just adding further dimensions to what both can describe, without relevant interactions between those concepts, since the 70s one calls them orthogonal (see en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orthogona ... er_science ).

The real question is, how some crucial features of such a magic system would look.

  • To use FATE at all, you have to adapt the ArM magic system in a way, that specifically defines and severely limits its interaction with the FATE core rules, thereby making it an orthogonal add-on. E. g. defining Hermetic magic via FATE Extras and related aspects could be hoped to achieve this.
  • But this alone does not yet provide any benefit over the existing ArM5 rules. Whether such a benefit might exist or not, one can best verify by looking at mocked-up magus FATE characters designed to use a specific basic idea of Hermetic magic for FATE. Then we see, whether the specific ArM features - like rich, differentiated, evolving magic system, long term character development through study, research, item creation etc. - can be preserved and easily interwork with the FATE basic rules. We see, whether FATE provides some additional benefit to the character that ArM5 did not. Or we see, that we have just a new Frankenstein's monster on our hands.
  • Important is, to not put more effort than absolutely necessary into the design of the adaptation of ArM magic system to FATE, and concentrate on its interface to FATE core. Otherwise the work needed will not be worth the insight it provides.

Cheers

32

I know what the term means, I am not ignorant. I still fail to understand the context, further, I may not be the only one. It is the mark of an intelligent man to explain complex concepts in simple terms. I'll quote Einstein, if you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well. While I may not understand FATE well, or even Ars Magica well, I do see that the use of that term in this forum is not a simple usage.

Well, we are discussing something other than ArM5 rules, aren't we? The line is dead, long live the line.

33

It's an appropriate usage that quickly gets to the point of an involved issue.

Cheers

34

No, don´t mesh Ars Magica with Fate!

I love both systems, but for completely different reasons.

If you´re adopting the Fate Rules upon Mythic Europe you´ll lose many of the qualities Ars Magica has. In addition, Ars Magica would be "one of those Fate Settings" beside many more (they have ca. 30 official settings or offshoots already). And to say the least: The most Fate settings are more surprising, more dernier cri and have more pop appeal than Mythic Europe (I have to say it, even though I love Mythic Europe).

If I´d want to lead Ars Magica out of the present downside trend, I´d do two things:

First I´d examine as accurately as possible what new systems have evolved and what it is that makes them successful.

In my eyes with the 5th edition Ars Magica removed itself from the storytelling systems. I don´t lament about this, but if you´re looking at the new successful systems the most of them use some roleplaying devices, that strengthen the storytelling share of roleplaying.

Look at the aspects and the player empowerment of Fate, the Bennies of Savage Worlds or the Freeform Style of Fiasco! Ars Magica has some of this elements (confidence, spontaneous magic), but either they are not very important for the overall impression of the game or they are perfected in a manner that surmounts the complexity of the most new systems by far. In my regional roleplaying forum Ars Magica counts as a system that becomes old. The reason is the absence of most of this new hip mechanics.

Second, I´d create a think tank with the best authors I can get (and this will be no problem: Ars Magica already has the best authors). The task: Don´t try to imitate the new ruleslight systems. Try to lead Ars Magica to the future in a surprising way. You have to develop some new mechanisms, that the people will talk about. This mechanisms should not be developed to climb on the bandwagon, they should be developed with an eye for Mythic Europe and the assets of Ars Magica. I think, it is possible to retrieve the storytelling aura of the game. But you can´t do it like 2nd or 3rd edition. Keep in mind, that today there are systems like Fate! You have to find a new way! Once upon a time Ars Magica was the vanguard of the roleplaying systems. Try to reconquer this place.

The roleplaying society in my country (germany) is divided: Some of them love the new "systems to go". This is not your first client base. But the others still cling to D&D4, Gurps, whatever. Slowly they feel old, because the new revolutionaries poke fun at their slow systems, complex mathematics and heavy rulebooks. I think, they´d be eager to get a game, that is modern and fits their taste of roleplaying.

Don´t set the approach of precision that is typical for Ars Magica at nought. If you lose this, you´ve lost the game completely. Apart from that, be bold, permissive and fearless! It isn´t very important if there is a 6th edition in 2016 or 2018. What is more important: This edition has to be a bomb!

I believe in you.

Chiarina.

35

Recently I've been referring to Ars as 'roleplaying for people who love spreadsheets', which is admittedly rather harsh, but it's born from the difficulty we've had in keeping a saga alive in our peer group. Our long-suffering Theban Tribunal game finally died last year, and we're all playing Pathfinder or L5R now, in part because they both require less work between sessions.

I think that 'offscreen' time (labwork, seasons, developing infrastructure, etc) is what makes Ars special, but also what limits its appeal, at least to the casual gamer; if that could be made more modular or optional, it might broaden the appeal of the game, though I could see that upsetting some old hands.

For the record, I would LOVE to help develop alternate setting material.

36

I've played FATE, and I'm not especially impressed with it. Possibly it's the GM, and we often don't resort to the rules, but when we do it seems clunky and forced - "You have a Description aspect - [roll, usually get a 0] an Adjectival result."* It's not terrible, but it's not great either.

*Complicated by a difference in reporting preferences - I roll and report numbers, the GM likes to use the (in my opinion) non-intuitive ladder descriptions - "I total 4." "Ah - a Delicious result!" (or whatever the appropriate term is). 2 + 2 = 4. Good + Great = ? 3 + Good = ? ... Double Plusgood ... ?

ArM FATE does not, on the surface, appeal on a system end to me.

37

A game system doesn't have to be simple to be successful. Ars Magica could stand a lot of polishing, and suffers from a lot of 'specific rules for X', but any game about magic is going to either be complicated or entirely loosey-goosey.

Complex is fine provided one of two things are done:
A.) Rules are explicitly clear on what happens
B.) Rules are reasonably intuitive on what happens

Ars Magica has problems with this in Ability rolls, because they're not 100% tied to a Characteristic. Is Music a Presence, Communication or Dexterity Check? Is Athletics a Strength, Stamina, Quickness or Dexterity Check? The answer is 'it depends' - the game is trying to be intuitive, but often fails in that regard (becoming arbitrary rather than intuitive). A shorter list of Characteristics would make it more intuitive, or a list of typical uses would make it explicitly clear.

Other important mechanics sometimes seem counter-intuitive. Writing books is the biggest example, where writing has little to do with skill as a writer rather than innate talent for writing (Good Teacher + Communication). Why is there no Authoring skill? It's something that does improve with practice and effort. For a game centered so much around book learning, this seems to be a real oversight. Teaching is improved by the skill of the teacher, but writing is entirely down to talent? :question:

38

To open the game up to more settings, the magic rules would have to be modified to work with Newtonian Physics rather than Aristotle. That one change opens up many different settings.

39

Another player I know has called it the game for people who loved homework in high school. The homework needs to be somewhat optional, but not in a way that advantages one person who spends hours tweaking over someone who does not. That's a tall order to fill.

Sure, it might upset old hands, but they are already upset by the ending of the line. The time is ripe to do something new and different. As the person who brought up FATE in response to Timothy Ferguson's comments about wanting a system flexible enough to handle anything, I'll say that I'm not beholden to it. I'm just saying that what he described in the OP was FATE.

40

If it was from me, it was long enough ago that I don't remember it, I'm afraid.