I eagerly look forward to your upcomming summa on Single Weapon. Or, for that matter, Weaponsmithing. Generally only Academic and Arcane Abilities have books.
I haven't really done the math on the advancement from poor to Wealthy, I'll presume it is accurate. My concern is that advancement seems particularly singleminded. I think that there needs to be a bit more variance in the advancement that mimics the advancement of a character in play. I have never been in a saga that has perfect advancement where my desired advancement in accordance to only my desire, there is usually some conflict and the standard advancement rules reflect that poorly. I think there needs to be [strike]done[/strike] some variance to the advancement, reflecting that the suhar is asking him to advance in a direction they would like rather than the what he would like. Such a plan would certainly impact his acquisition of Wealthy.
The RAW allows many things that can easily be called munchkin, so saying that what you have done is RAW is not an adequate defense.
I wouldn't say that. As far as I know fencing manuals weren't much of a thing in 1200, but this Sahir ought to live long enough to see Single Weapon textbooks become common-ish.
Frankly, I don't consider this very "munchkin" - at least in the sense of "optimized for longevity"!
Consider a character who started as Wealthy in the first place, with no interest whatsoever in a Craft trade. Wealthy + Ability Block + Weak Characteristics x 2 (who needs Strength +3 if all you want to be is a scholar?): 3 Virtue points, and 3 Flaw points.
Consider Rashid. Poor + Affinity for Weaponsmithing + Mythic Weaponsmith x2. 3 Virtue points, and 3 Flaw points. And, compared to the Wealthy-from-birth character, a loss of:
10 x 24 = 240 xp (having earned 10 fewer xp/year from when he was 5 to when he was 29) plus
5 x 4 xp (having earned 5 fewer xp/year from when he was 29 to when he was 33) plus
(93+25+10) - 75 = 53xp, and counting (having invested, before the affinity, 93+25+10 xp in weaponsmithing, when he could have invested just 75 to gain Medicine 5 and live comfortably as a doctor with Com + Medicine =6).
So, the concept of a "self-made" weaponsmith "wastes" 313xp (and more, since he'll keep investing xp in his weaponsmithing in the coming years).
In what sense singleminded?
Rashid advances from Poor to "Average" just by working the normal 3 seasons/year. His Ability and controlling Characteristic are exactly the same as those in the C&G weaponsmith example (+3 in the Characteristic and 7 in the Ability, save that in that case it uses Puissant rather than Affinity, which is more cost effective).
The only "singlemindedness" is about keeping working as if he were Poor, for just four years after having gotten rid of poverty. This seems a pretty common attitude in real life, so common that there are even rules in place to deal with it (his "Miser" xps). After that, he's back to a perfectly average pace... It's just that Rashid is pretty good as a Weaponsmith, having invested a lot of characteristic points, an Affinity, and a lot of xp into it. But he is certainly not a character optimized for longevity.
I disagree, for two reasons. First, the Suhar can't dictate your actions; donate 1/4 of your wealth and they can't ask for more. Second, it's true that xp advancement in actual play is a bit more varied. But from my experience, a character with 3 free seasons/year and access to a library, can typically pick up way more than 25xp/year.
Hi,
I find it very convenient that this is the only character I recall on these boards who took this rags to riches approach.
I consider good optimization to be a virtue, not a vice.
But so sorry, this character is optimized. Could he be more optimized? Yes.
Are you a munchkin? Of course not. You are no more a munchkin than I am.
Anyway,
Ken
As I said, I haven't gone through the advancement from Poor to Wealthy, I'll assume it was done correctly. It still "feels" singleminded, even if it is completely correct.
Sure, they can get more than 25 XP per year, but it isn't always immediately useful to the character, sometimes exchanges with fellow PCs need to be made, sometimes NPCs. Can't tell you how many times I've had to invent a spell or do lab work for three or two seasons as opposed to two or one seasons, respectively because I couldn't get access to a tome in time. Regardless of the circumstance, the same amount of time was spent, though.
If we're going to go for perfect optimization, increase the XP available for advancement to reflect that more is possible...
Your math is off.
How can it be that you waste a Virtue point when compared to the other build you listed, considering you end up dropping Poor and gaining Wealthy? When you subtract Wealthy off each later build, you'll find you have gained Virtue points in comparison, not wasted them. Sure, many of them give peripheral benefits. But still, you're way ahead in Virtue points.
Also, repeatedly investing in Weaponsmithing is actually advantageous for longevity. If you lose your oldest knowledge, eventually you'll hit Weaponsmithing, where you have an Affinity and a lot of points placed. That will end up meaning you've effectively saved a large number of those points you claim are wasted. Meanwhile your actual score in Weaponsmithing may well not even drop, dampening the effects a tiny bit more. If you don't account for this, your math on the lost experience is misleading since it doesn't really show how much will be saved at the same time. It's like saying you lose a lot of money buying a house instead of renting because the house costs so much without taking equity into account at all.
Yes, you could have done more being a doctor. I could have done more with what I presented, too. I just find the complaint that my adding two Minor Virtues to the base (Sihr + Solomonic Alchemy) is too munchkin to consider while this is not odd to say the least. I'm not saying your build is totally focused on longevity.
I totally agree. I have no problem with this build. Rather, I think it's clever and will showcase some good things. I just don't like the argument that he's not somewhat optimized/munchkinned. Really, he's optimized more as a playable 400-year-old Sahir. Not only will he live really long, but he'll also be really good at a bunch of things that would be handy to have as a PC. He'll have great weapons and be able to make all sorts of enchanted/special stuff for himself. Considering he's not Gifted, this character takes a Companion slot. Would we not consider him a well-optimized companion for longevity?
It doesn't have to be Book Learner. That's just an example. It could be Apt Student, for another example. Could you really not afford to hire a teacher once in a while to teach you what you forgot, especially since forgetting means you have a lower Ability now and have more potential teachers? Really, the point is that learning Virtues can cut into the loss significantly, not that Book Learner is the ideal learning Virtue for all characters.
Yes, and other things too.
I went to reread things. I find no support for this. I haven't found anything in TC&TC yet that disagrees with statements in ArM5 and HMRE. Each magical tradition has its way of handling Warping (Twilight, etc.). Generally unGifted practitioners just get Virtues/Flaws instead. Where does TC&TC specify that unGifted Sahirs are an exception?
He doesn't look optimized to me. His best characteristic is Strength, which he doesn't seem to use much, and his Flaws look legitimately problematic. He'd probably be better off with Poor Quickness instead of Unspecialised, for instance. Plus he doesn't have any experience-boosting Virtue.
Affinity with Weaponsmith isn't an xp boosting virtue?
This is an interesting experiment, but if what you want to demonstrate is that a standard sahir can easily cheat death, I think you've started with some assumptions that could undermine your premise.
Firstly, you're using a mixture of the character generation rules and the advancement rules, which doesn't really reflect how characters advance in play. I think it would be more representative if you made a 20-year-old character using the character creation rules and then used other methods to represent how he advances. Since it seems like a large part of your experience expenditure will be re-learning Abilities, you are probably going to have to do it with Practice, since he won't have applicable books, and thus the number of seasons he has to study each year matters.
Iâd also suggest you avoid things like your cool trick of transforming the Poor Flaw into the Wealthy Virtue, as that muddles the issue of whether or not the character is standard. Do you have to be Wealthy to be a 400-year-old sahir? If thatâs part of your experiment, I think you should take the Virtue to start.
Secondly, True Names. According to RoP: Infernal, characters can find True Names of demons easily enough, allowing them to spend 5 points of Infernal Lore experience to learn a specific demonâs name. It doesnât say you can learn magical True Names this way, and I think allowing it also makes the idea that this is a standard sahir questionable. Having to find spirits to summon and then invent summoning naranjs to reach them reliably is an important limitation on sahirs, I think.
A starting sahir gets a relationship with one spirit that he is capable of summoning (plus any others for which he learns summoning naranjs). If thatâs Aisha, either Rashid needs a higher Sihr score or she needs a lower Might Score, because even with a summoning naranj, Sihr 8 isnât good enough to penetrate her 25 Resistance. Iâd also point out that her being his True Love doesnât make summoning her automatic or free of cost, so he still needs to pay her taqa or a duty each time he summons her. If part of your experiment assumes that she will serve him faithfully without question like a Ghostly Warder or Magical (Spirit) Companion, I think you should take the corresponding Virtue or Flaw. I also think you should list out how much vis he is spending every year, as part of the experiment.
Thirdly, the characterâs experience expenditures donât meet the recommended values for sahirs. He should have at least Solomonic Alchemy 5, and 120 levels of naranjs to be a standard starting character. Granted these are "recommended," not required, but I would think a standard sahir would have the recommended scores. A sahir without any naranjs is odd to say the least. 
Iâd argue that Disfigured should apply to Summoning Totals, because Summoning uses Presence to attract the attention of spirits, and Disfigured affects Presence rolls. Thatâs going to penalize a lot of his activities, so it might not be the best choice of Flaw. And I think to be fair his Major Personality Flaw and his True Love should each cause him to lose a season periodically.
Finally, this is minor, but the dice rolling method youâre using doesnât feel very representative of the inherent risk to me. As a string, pi doesnât have a particularly even spread of values-- 0s are especially rare. Iâd rather you did something where you grouped similar rolls together and assumed an average roll of 6, but included an extraordinary success and a botch in every ten.
I wonder if you might demonstrate your premise better with a Gifted sahir? That would save you a few Virtue Points, at least. I'm skeptical that any character can buy back experience fast enough to keep up with their decreasing age for 100 years or more, while also not accumulating any Aging Points towards Decrepitude, but I imagine you'd have an easier time showing it can be done if you started first with a character who is optimized to do that and nothing else.
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I think there may be more agreement about the substance than about the words then.
When I say this character is not a "longevity munchkin" I mean that:
A. his longevity does not depend on questionable interpretations of the rules * AND
B. he is not, by far, the most "aging-resistant" Sahir that one could design AND
C. he can be used to explore aspects of the game other than longevity (in this case, craftsmanship) AND
D. he could be easily altered to explore very different aspects of the game, while retaining the same level of longevity, showing that a lot of very different Sahirs could have the same level of longevity.
Are we in agreement about that?
- Actually, the thing about Fatra Banya being restricted to Gifted Sahirs took me by surprise. I had never even remotely considered the possibility that UnGifted Sahirs would "warp" as mundanes. I still believe this was not the intent of the rules, nor that a strict reading of what is written would lead to this conclusion, but I do concede that some people might see it this way based on the text of HM. Still, as I said, where the rules are not totally clear, I'm going to make some judgement calls, and this will be one of them!
Regarding the rules for advancement, I personally dislike City and Guild's rules a fair bit and I think that it is too easy to become de facto Wealthy, particularly with a little magical help. But that's me, and the rules are there as written. Besides, being a sahir should be enough to make you wealthy by itself if you're selling alchemized goods (though this itself brings story fodder).
And I do not see anywhere in TC&TC that says unGifted sahirs do not suffer Fatra Bayna.
Having read Erik's post just before, I'd say we are not in agreement! 
I love optimizing. But the most useful character for this experiment is the one that is least optimized and most vanilla. That establishes a baseline for what a Sahir can achieve in the realm of longevity.
For simplicity, I would suggest something like the following:
- Sahir is gifted.
- Sahir has no interesting virtues or flaws, especially no v/fs that modify xp gain during play, such as Affinities. So no need to specify any v/fs.
- Sahir is built using standard rules.
- Sahir gets 30 points/year of advancement. I'm happy to otherwise ignore wealth, poverty, etc, and assume taht exposure for 1 season/year is baked in.
- Sahir spends at least 1/4 of his time on non-magical advancement.
- Sahir spends at least 1/4 of his time learning naranjes. This is a bit extreme, but sahirs aren't very sahir-like without things they can do with their magic.
- Sahir can do whatever he likes with the rest.
- Sahir can assume a Magic Aura of 3, because 3 is sparkly.
- Sahir may not experiment.
- Sahir gains 2 Warping/year, above and beyond what he gives himself.
- Sahir loses 6xp/die and does not roll.
- Sahir can only bind/associate/etc with spirits he can manage on a die roll of 2.
- Sahir may not take any other option that involves a die roll, if some other option exists.
- Sahir cannot simulate getting extras of any kind: The rules for advancement include this already.
There. Very vanilla. Totally unoptimized for anything, except what you make of him in (hopefully centuries) of simulated development.
Anyway,
Ken
Hmm. I disagree. While I say I am "creating and advancing" a Sahir, I am actually going through the long process of creating a 400-year-old Sahir according to the "Detailed character generation" method (ArM5, p.28). This is exactly what's done to "advance" characters in Magi of Hermes (in 15-year intervals).
The reason of doing it this way rather than using the "Extremely complex character generation" method (ArM5, p.33) that you seem to be advocating is that in this way I don't have to make very subjective assumptions about the kind of resources available to the character (books vs. practice vs. teaching etc.), assumptions that I feel could definitely undermine my conclusions to a greater extent. It is usually accepted that the "flat" yearly amounts of xp that "Detailed character generation" provides are a somewhat conservative estimate of what could be earned if the character was played.
In this regard, I really don't see why a Sahir would have to learn Abilities mostly through practice as you suggest, particularly given that tC&tC specifically mentions that being part of the Suhhar gives "improved access to study sources" as the reason why a Sahir gains more yearly experience compared to a non-Sahir of equal Wealth (15/20/25xp for Poor/Average/Wealthy vs. the usual 10/15/20).
Again, I disagree (although, as I have noted, it does not really change the essential dynamics of the character). Characters undergoing "Detailed character generation" can gain or lose Virtues and Flaws as the years go by, e.g. as a consequence of Warping or Initiation.
RoP:Infernal does indeed deal only with True Names of demons. But RoP:Magic (p.110) apparently says that the same rule applies to True Names of all supernatural creatures (Magic, Divine, etc.) that have a True Name. "Each True Name is a spell-like ability recorded as âTrue Name of (Being)â on the character sheet, and costs 5 experience points to learn. These points can come from Practice, Exposure, or Adventure; or from an Advancement Total dedicated to the appropriate (Realm) Lore. You receive one free experience point in the (Realm) Lore whenever the character learns a True Name completely."
I had not understood tC&tC was written under a different assumption, although now a few more things (like Angelic True Names being a Major Virtue or the Seeking/Scouring activity of Sahirs do make more sense). This is probably an inconsistency that should be errata'd somewhere. The "no easy true names save for demons" assumption does not impact Rashid's longevity, though it could invalidate some activities I had planned for him just to make him more "lifelike".
Uhm. There are several points here that are not entirely clear to me.
First, why do you say "even with a summoning naranj"? As far as I can tell, the only advantage summoning naranjs offer over Sihr is that they take very little time?
Second, why do you say that Rashid can't summon Aisha?
Sihr generates a Summoning total equal to stress die+Sihr+Presence+Aura. For Rashid outside of an Aura, this averages about 6+8+1=15. To this, one should add Rashid's Penetration x Multiplier, which is 1 or 6 depending on whether we can count an Arcane connection in ... but let's be conservative and assume it's just a 1. Finally, each additional 15 minutes spent on the summoning (with the corresponding loss of a long-term fatigue level) allows Rashid to add +5 to Penetration, meaning that if Rashid is willing to sacrifice 2 fatigue levels, on a stress die roll of 6+ he penetrates Aisha's resistance even without need of an Arcane connection or of taqa.
Note that tC&tC specifically states (emphasis mine):
"Unless he has a Virtue like Ghostly Warder or a Flaw like Magical Spirit Companion, he cannot assume that any of these spirits will do him any favors without being paid for their service or being compelled by his magic".
I don't assume that Rashid's True Love "will serve him faithfully without question", but I do assume that his True Love will be just as willing to help him without payment as his grandmother's ghost or as his Spirit friend. After all, True Love is a Minor Story Flaw, instead of Major one, exactly when the True Love is at least as powerful as the PC and can help him out at least as much as he can return the favour. Still, mechanically, True Love (Minor) is perfectly identical to Magical Companion so one could swap one Flaw for the other...
It would be interesting, yes. But I'm just going with the "Detailed Character Creation" rules which abstract away the need to keep track of vis. Sahirs are prodigious consumers of vis, and the Al-Iksir (which effectively requires one pawn every one or two years) is probably a rather small portion of their consumption. So if a Sahir has sufficient vis to avoid being magically crippled, he most likely has more than enough to maintain his longevity.
As you say, these are "recommended" for a Sahir that is starting play, and the basis of the recommendation seems to be that without them a Sahir is not sufficiently effective. Since we are trying to show that Rashid's magic will eventually provide him with phenomenal longevity, starting him very weak only strengthens the argument!
Also! Remember, I am running a 400-year-old Sahir through Detailed Character Generation, and taking a snapshot of him at age 20. What you are saying is that Rashid at age 20, 5 years after joining the Suhhar, should not be considered a playable Sahir because too inexperienced. That may or may not be true (he can still do some interesting things with his Sihr 8 ), but the key is that virtually every Sahir has been this inexperienced at some point in life
I disagree. Disfigured affects some Presence rolls, not all Presence rolls; in particular, it specifically involves rolls that involve "good looks and gaining respect from most people". Seduction attempts would certainly be affected, as would leading an army, but I would not consider the magical act of summmoning a spirit to be affected. This is a judgement call from me, but note that a flaw to a similar effect that does not impact Rashid's summoning could easily replace Disfigured, so for the purpose of the experiment it's not really important.
Personality and Story Flaws are, indeed, supposed to push characters into stories. But stories do provide experience, so in some sense the seasons involved are not "lost", but already accounted for by the annual xp gain rate. Incidentally, note that Rashid's Personality Flaw has already influenced his behaviour and his xp allocation.
This is quite surprising to me. I thought that pi had a fairly uniform distribution of digits. Check out here. Sure, there's "only" 8 zeros rather than the "average" 10 in the first 100 digits, and "only" 93 zeros rather than the "average" 100 in the first 1000 digits, but these are normal fluctuations that any sequence of randomly generated numbers will exhibit. I chose the pi sequence because anyone can easily check it.
Well, it's certainly easier to do with a Gifted Sahir, and one utterly devoted to longevity. But if I do show that Rashid can survive until 400 (as I think I can) I've proved a stronger result.
I disagree. The least optimized Sahir and most vanilla is an Ungifted Sahir who specializes exclusively in Sihr, or perhaps in one of the three-out-of-five Solomonic Arts that do not provide a bonus to aging. But we already know such a character would not live longer than any other mundane.
So the most useful character for this experiment would be one that is least optimized (or potentially most crippled) while at the same time capable of reaching 400 years of age. The problem is that there are many ways to build such a character, and it's not obvious which is the most representative one. For example, one could argue that the ideal "example" character is one without any Virtues or Flaws (save the mandatory ones for his role, e.g. Sihr and a Solomonic Art for an Ungifted Sahir). But is it really a representative example of what you see in your games? I'd say it's characteristically unrepresentative, since virtually all characters I've seen had some strengths and some weaknesses.
Rashid tries to be a representative character - a representative example of the type of Sahir one might encounter in my sagas. A character with a Solomonic Art providing an aging bonus, a character with strengths and weaknesses albeit none specifically focused on longevity (even though some might help him in a fairly roundabout way).
Actually, this example adds to a character a fair number of artificial restrictions (why can't he bind a spirit that he can summon only with a roll of 3+?), unsanctioned bonuses (why does he gain 30xp/year, which is more than a Wealthy character gains?), and unclear constraints (what is Warping that the Sahir "gives himself"?). I would not consider this a more representative example than Rashid. But then, to each his own