Discussion on "The 400-year-old Sahir" thread

[Erik_Dahl]

@ezzelino

Hmm. I disagree. While I say I am "creating and advancing" a Sahir, I am actually going through the long process of creating a 400-year-old Sahir according to the "Detailed character generation" method (ArM5, p.28). This is exactly what's done to "advance" characters in Magi of Hermes (in 15-year intervals).

My apologies, I had thought that Magi of Hermes actually detailed study sources and covenant resources, and required the authors to keep track of them over time, thus being closer to Extremely Complex than Detailed Character Creation. I didn't write the sahir character generation rules to be used this way, but I'll take another look at the methods they used. I'm particularly skeptical about how to deal with vis stores/income and study sources, since sahirs don't really live in covenants like magi do.

@ezzelino

In this regard, I really don't see why a Sahir would have to learn Abilities mostly through practice as you suggest, particularly given that tC&tC specifically mentions that being part of the Suhhar gives "improved access to study sources" as the reason why a Sahir gains more yearly experience compared to a non-Sahir of equal Wealth (15/20/25xp for Poor/Average/Wealthy vs. the usual 10/15/20).

If you were advancing him through play, I don’t think your character would have access to (for example) a Level 8+ summa on Craft: Weaponsmithing, so I imagine you’d have to regain those points through Practice or Exposure. I think a lot of the Solomonic arts would have been learned from tractatus rather than summae in play, which means the character would have already read all the materials on hand. Likewise with Arabic and other Abilities like Awareness or Area Lore or Second Sight-- since the character originally learned it from sources that aren’t around any longer, Practice is probably the best source.

I’m just saying I don’t think sacrificing an average of 6 experience points for every Al-Iksir point is much of a penalty when the net effect is basically to subtract them from a yearly pool. In play, re-learning that knowledge takes a precious season of effort, at least. Maybe a better way to represent this sacrifice during Detailed Character Creation is for the character to have to give up a season for each Al-Iksir point, like when working in the lab? That’s like giving up 10xp, which isn’t too onerous, but also makes it clear that taking multiple Al-Iksir points takes a lot more time and effort to make up, and losing a year to Fatra Bayna hurts more.

(You're right, all sahirs experience Fatra Bayna, unless they are also Hermetic magi, in which case they get Twilight.)

@ezzelino

Again, I disagree (although, as I have noted, it does not really change the essential dynamics of the character). Characters undergoing "Detailed character generation" can gain or lose Virtues and Flaws as the years go by, e.g. as a consequence of Warping or Initiation.

I still think this is muddying the waters. You’ve used rules that were intended to happen during play to buy off a Major Flaw and gain a Major Virtue, all without any consequences to the character. I don’t think any players here would allow you to do this with a starting character in a saga; if you want the character to be Wealthy, you should take the Wealthy Virtue and a Flaw or Flaws to balance it. Especially for a sahir! Wealthy is one of the best experience-boosting Virtues there is, and you’re also using it to increase your Aging bonus by 2, which is huge. I think you should really spend the points for this Virtue, since it seems pretty essential to your build.

@ezzelino

RoP:Infernal does indeed deal only with True Names of demons. But RoP:Magic (p.110) apparently says that the same rule applies to True Names of all supernatural creatures (Magic, Divine, etc.) that have a True Name. "Each True Name is a spell-like ability recorded as “True Name of (Being)” on the character sheet, and costs 5 experience points to learn. These points can come from Practice, Exposure, or Adventure; or from an Advancement Total dedicated to the appropriate (Realm) Lore. You receive one free experience point in the (Realm) Lore whenever the character learns a True Name completely."

I had not understood tC&tC was written under a different assumption, although now a few more things (like Angelic True Names being a Major Virtue or the Seeking/Scouring activity of Sahirs do make more sense). This is probably an inconsistency that should be errata'd somewhere. The "no easy true names save for demons" assumption does not impact Rashid's longevity, though it could invalidate some activities I had planned for him just to make him more "lifelike".

Hmm, I don’t think I wrote that part of Magic, and I didn’t remember it was there. I did write the references in Cradle & Crescent to not mention a specific realm in connection with True Names because I knew that all sorts of True Names were possible, but I’d argue they should come from play, meeting the spirit and developing a relationship with it, like a potential familiar. (The sahirs specifically use and teach summoning naranjs instead of True Names, so that’s an easy substitution.)

@ezzelino

First, why do you say "even with a summoning naranj"? As far as I can tell, the only advantage summoning naranjs offer over Sihr is that they take very little time?

You have to have an arcane connection to the summoned spirit if it isn’t right next to you, and summoning naranjs, like True Names, mean you don’t have to carry anything around with you. Whether the spirit is nearby or far away, a summoning naranj always boosts your Penetration multiplier, even without a physical arcane connection, which is what I meant. And yes, it takes a moment instead of at least 15 minutes.

@ezzelino

Second, why do you say that Rashid can't summon Aisha?
Sihr generates a Summoning total equal to stress die+Sihr+Presence+Aura. For Rashid outside of an Aura, this averages about 6+8+1=15. To this, one should add Rashid's Penetration x Multiplier, which is 1 or 6 depending on whether we can count an Arcane connection in ... but let's be conservative and assume it's just a 1. Finally, each additional 15 minutes spent on the summoning (with the corresponding loss of a long-term fatigue level) allows Rashid to add +5 to Penetration, meaning that if Rashid is willing to sacrifice 2 fatigue levels, on a stress die roll of 6+ he penetrates Aisha's resistance even without need of an Arcane connection or of taqa.

The Ease Factor for summoning Aisha is 25. Rashid’s Summoning Total is 1 (Presence, also assuming we’re not applying the Disfigured penalty which doesn’t seem like it will ever apply otherwise, but never mind) + 8 (Sihr) + 0 (magic aura during Character Creation) + 6 (we don’t usually apply a stress die when determining whether or not you can do something during Character Creation, but let’s say 6 anyway). That’s a total of 15, and it doesn’t beat the Ease Factor of 25. We don’t need to generate a Penetration Total, because the Summoning fails. I don’t think you can assume free taqa for boosting the Summoning Total, since that only applies to laboratory activities. So why do you think Rashid can summon Aisha?

@ezzelino

Note that tC&tC specifically states (emphasis mine):
"Unless he has a Virtue like Ghostly Warder or a Flaw like Magical Spirit Companion, he cannot assume that any of these spirits will do him any favors without being paid for their service or being compelled by his magic".
I don't assume that Rashid's True Love "will serve him faithfully without question", but I do assume that his True Love will be just as willing to help him without payment as his grandmother's ghost or as his Spirit friend. After all, True Love is a Minor Story Flaw, instead of Major one, exactly when the True Love is at least as powerful as the PC and can help him out at least as much as he can return the favour.

If we're talking about whether or not you can ask your spirit to do stuff for you, sure, True Love is great. For example, I'd agree that she'd certainly be willing to let Rashid form the khadim bond with her. Or "My love, would you fly over there invisibly and count the number of guards outside the jail?" "Of course, sweetie." But being summoned to participate in Solomonic magic isn't this sort of favor-- the way Sihr works, Rashid still has to offer taqa, make a Summoning roll to determine the Summoning Strength, and calculate his Bargaining Total based on the terms of service. This applies to any spirit. The rules don't include any special bonus for Bargaining with your true love or magical spirit companion, though in an emergency I might allow a player to double up on a duty and the effects of the Story Flaw.

Speaking of taqa, I don’t think you should be able to spend half your Sihr score plus half your Solomonic art score in taqa each season. When the character creation rules say you can spend “half the maximum amount of vis as he can spend on the activity,” it’s referring to the Vis Limit given later under Seasonal Summoning, Vis Manipulation ("score in associated Solomonic art"). So if Rashid has a score of 12 in Solomonic Alchemy, he would get a maximum of 6 taqa toward an Alchemical lab activity. I’d have no issue with some of that going to the Summoning Total, of course, but that's significantly less than you're assuming so far.

@ezzelino

Still, mechanically, True Love (Minor) is perfectly identical to Magical Companion so one could swap one Flaw for the other...

Well, they are both Minor Story Flaws, yes. I think Magical (Spirit) Companion has a limit on the companion’s Might Score, though. So Aisha might need to be Magic Might 10 instead of 25. But then Rashid could summon her, so that works out. I dunno, I think True Love is just as good for what you want her to do, and I agree it makes a better story.

@ezzelino

It would be interesting, yes. But I'm just going with the "Detailed Character Creation" rules which abstract away the need to keep track of vis. Sahirs are prodigious consumers of vis, and the Al-Iksir (which effectively requires one pawn every one or two years) is probably a rather small portion of their consumption. So if a Sahir has sufficient vis to avoid being magically crippled, he most likely has more than enough to maintain his longevity.

He has to summon his spirit for the whole season, which usually costs more taqa, and also spend one taqa per Al-Iksir Point, which I assume involves also trying to get ahead of time lost to Fatra Bayna or other distractions.

@ezzelino

As you say, these are "recommended" for a Sahir that is starting play, and the basis of the recommendation seems to be that without them a Sahir is not sufficiently effective. Since we are trying to show that Rashid's magic will eventually provide him with phenomenal longevity, starting him very weak only strengthens the argument!

Is he self-taught? I find it hard to believe his masters at the House of Wisdom wouldn’t insist on teaching him some spells (and I certainly think they would do so instead of teaching him True Names). I don't agree he's weaker, he's just overspecialized-- you've focused on things that make it possible for him to buy off Poor and gain Wealthy instead. If you just took Wealthy to begin with, you'd have a lot more experience points.

@ezzelino

Also! Remember, I am running a 400-year-old Sahir through Detailed Character Generation, and taking a snapshot of him at age 20. What you are saying is that Rashid at age 20, 5 years after joining the Suhhar, should not be considered a playable Sahir because too inexperienced. That may or may not be true (he can still do some interesting things with his Sihr 8 ), but the key is that virtually every Sahir has been this inexperienced at some point in life

I think you should treat each snapshot as a finished product of character creation, and I’m pointing out that this snapshot is non-standard by about 129 experience points. Shouldn't you make sure the snapshot character has all the recommended sahir scores before he learns other Abilities? In Magi of Hermes, were there any characters that hadn't yet finished their apprenticeship?

@ezzelino

This is quite surprising to me. I thought that pi had a fairly uniform distribution of digits. Check out here. Sure, there's "only" 8 zeros rather than the "average" 10 in the first 100 digits, and "only" 93 zeros rather than the "average" 100 in the first 1000 digits, but these are normal fluctuations that any sequence of randomly generated numbers will exhibit. I chose the pi sequence because anyone can easily check it.

Knowing what you’re going to roll also makes it easy to (perhaps unconsciously) order actions so that they have the least negative impact. How did Magi of Hermes handle dice rolls?

[ezzelino]

First of all, thanks for the detailed reply! A lot of interesting things came up. Let me try to both summarize them, and briefly comment on them.

@Erik Dahl

I’m just saying I don’t think sacrificing an average of 6 experience points for every Al-Iksir point is much of a penalty when the net effect is basically to subtract them from a yearly pool. In play, re-learning that knowledge takes a precious season of effort, at least. Maybe a better way to represent this sacrifice during Detailed Character Creation is for the character to have to give up a season for each Al-Iksir point, like when working in the lab?

In this regard, I think most people who have looked at the numbers agree. 5.5xp for each point of A-Iksir means an average loss of 2.75xp per year, which is almost negligible. I think it's a weakness in the RAW, but the whole point of the exercise is testing the RAW and seeing if they do produce 400-year-old-Sahirs.

@Erik Dahl

@ezzelino

Characters undergoing "Detailed character generation" can gain or lose Virtues and Flaws as the years go by, e.g. as a consequence of Warping or Initiation.

I still think this is muddying the waters. You’ve used rules that were intended to happen during play to buy off a Major Flaw and gain a Major Virtue, all without any consequences to the character.

I wouldn't say "without any consequences". Starting off Poor means a character gains fewer xp until he becomes Wealthy. He loses 10xp/year after childhood until he buys off poverty, and 5xp/year until he gains Wealth. In Rashid's case, it meant a total of 24 x 10 xp + 4 x 5 xp lost. That's 260xp; given that the "typical" Minor Virtue gives you 50xp, it's between 5 and 6 Virtue points. Adding the Miserly reputation for overwork, the labour points used up (and possibly the fact that Rashid could achieve this only by heavily investing in being a good Weaponsmith) I think it balances out.

Still, I see how this has sparked controversy, and I agree that it was not the best of ideas to simulataneously explore not just the "how long can a Sahir live?" question but also the "what can a long-lived craftsman do?" question.

@Erik Dahl

@ezzelino

RoP:Infernal does indeed deal only with True Names of demons. But RoP:Magic (p.110) apparently says that the same rule applies to True Names of all supernatural creatures (Magic, Divine, etc.) that have a True Name.

Hmm, I don’t think I wrote that part of Magic, and I didn’t remember it was there. I did write the references in Cradle & Crescent to not mention a specific realm in connection with True Names because I knew that all sorts of True Names were possible, but I’d argue they should come from play, meeting the spirit and developing a relationship with it, like a potential familiar. (The sahirs specifically use and teach summoning naranjs instead of True Names, so that’s an easy substitution.)

This thing about True Names is interesting, and, as I said, with ramifications far beyond Sahirs.
It's also interesting to note that although a naranj "holds" a True Name, it appears that the True Name can't be "recovered" from it. I guess one could posit that, since a Sahir uses the True Names of his spirits only to summon them, and a summoning naranj is more "convenient", Sahirs don't learn True Names but instead learn naranjs, even though True Names would be slightly "cheaper" (in that they give back an xp to be spent on the corresponding Realm Lore). It would have been nice to see this articulated explicitly in tC&tC.

@Erik Dahl

@ezzelino

Second, why do you say that Rashid can't summon Aisha?

The Ease Factor for summoning Aisha is 25. Rashid’s Summoning Total is 1 + 8 (Sihr) + 0 (magic aura) + 6 (we don’t usually apply a stress die when determining whether or not you can do something during Character Creation, but let’s say 6 anyway). That’s a total of 15, and it doesn’t beat the Ease Factor of 25. We don’t need to generate a Penetration Total, because the Summoning fails. I don’t think you can assume free taqa for boosting the Summoning Total, since that only applies to laboratory activities. So why do you think Rashid can summon Aisha?

Oh, this clears up a lot of things. It's not explicit that if the Summoning Total is below the Spirit's might, the Summoning fails (though now I see the intent behind what's written).

However, if this is the case, Penetration is next to useless to a Sihr (or naranj) user. Penetration enters the picture only if and when you can beat the Spirit's Might with your Summoning Total. But if you can beat the Spirit Might even with just your Summoning Total, your Summoning penetrates no matter how low you Penetration bonus (due to a high Penetration, Arcane connections, extra time spent on Sihr etc.). I can live with this, but it seriously changes what a Sahir (and Rashid, in particular) can do.

I also think that the character creation rules should have been clearer on the meaning of "a spirit that you can summon". They should have stated "a spirit that you can summon with a roll of X without the use of taqa etc.". Or perhaps simply "a spirit whose Might does not exceed your Summoning Art + Presence".

@Erik Dahl

@ezzelino

Note that tC&tC specifically states (emphasis mine):
"Unless he has a Virtue like Ghostly Warder or a Flaw like Magical Spirit Companion, he cannot assume that any of these spirits will do him any favors without being paid for their service or being compelled by his magic".

If we're talking about whether or not you can ask your spirit to do stuff for you, sure, True Love is great.
... But being summoned to participate in Solomonic magic isn't this sort of favor-- the way Sihr works, Rashid still has to offer taqa, make a Summoning roll to determine the Summoning Strength, and calculate his Bargaining Total based on the terms of service. This applies to any spirit. The rules don't include any special bonus for Bargaining with your true love or magical spirit companion, though in an emergency I might allow a player to double up on a duty and the effects of the Story Flaw.

Oh, this clears up more things! From the passage I quoted it seemed (to me, at least) that, although you still need to formally summon even a friendly spirit (in particular, say, a Ghostly Warder or a Magical Spirit Companion) you won't need to bargain with it to have him participate in Solomonic Magic - the bargaining being in some sense, a social rather than ritual aspect of the process.

@Erik Dahl

Speaking of taqa, I don’t think you should be able to spend half your Sihr score plus half your Solomonic art score in taqa each season. When the character creation rules say you can spend “half the maximum amount of vis as he can spend on the activity,” it’s referring to the Vis Limit given later under Seasonal Summoning, Vis Manipulation ("score in associated Solomonic art"). So if Rashid has a score of 12 in Solomonic Alchemy, he would get a maximum of 6 taqa toward an Alchemical lab activity.

I had wondered if that was the idea behind the rules, but had discarded for a simple reason: it makes creation of Khadim bonds impossible (except to spirits of Might 5). That's because the maximum amount of taqa to create a Khadim bond equals the minimum, i.e. the Magnitude of the Spirit's Might. Halve that, and you can't have the bond, unless you exploit the "round-up" for Magnitude 1.

@Erik Dahl

@ezzelino

I chose the pi sequence because anyone can easily check it.

Knowing what you’re going to roll also makes it easy to (perhaps unconsciously) order actions so that they have the least negative impact. How did Magi of Hermes handle dice rolls?

Actually, my subconscious should be doing a lot of work I really don't remember (at least consciously!) what the next digit is, until I look it up. I think that the authors in Magi of Hermes just rolled dice.

[callen]

@Sanctaphrax

He doesn't look optimized to me. His best characteristic is Strength, which he doesn't seem to use much, and his Flaws look legitimately problematic. He'd probably be better off with Poor Quickness instead of Unspecialised, for instance. Plus he doesn't have any experience-boosting Virtue.

The Affinity has already been pointed out.

As for Strength, it goes into his Workshop Total, so it's a straight bonus to his Craft: Weaponsmithing. This provides a large amount of his progress out of Poor and into Wealthy. For a character being played, this would also matter for his magical crafting. So it is of a lot of use as it moves him into another experience-boosting Virtue (Wealthy).

[callen]

@ezzelino

I think there may be more agreement about the substance than about the words then.
When I say this character is not a "longevity munchkin" I mean that:

A. his longevity does not depend on questionable interpretations of the rules * AND
B. he is not, by far, the most "aging-resistant" Sahir that one could design AND
C. he can be used to explore aspects of the game other than longevity (in this case, craftsmanship) AND
D. he could be easily altered to explore very different aspects of the game, while retaining the same level of longevity, showing that a lot of very different Sahirs could have the same level of longevity.

Are we in agreement about that?

Yes, my issue was more that swapping a little of what helps him for other things that help could not be called a longevity munchkin unless he would also be called one. Thus I felt like it was being said that this guy violated his own conditions. But I think this is an interesting exercise and have no major issues. Just point (A) as it applies below needs to be addressed.

@ezzelino

• Actually, the thing about Fatra Banya being restricted to Gifted Sahirs took me by surprise. I had never even remotely considered the possibility that UnGifted Sahirs would "warp" as mundanes. I still believe this was not the intent of the rules, nor that a strict reading of what is written would lead to this conclusion, but I do concede that some people might see it this way based on the text of HM. Still, as I said, where the rules are not totally clear, I'm going to make some judgement calls, and this will be one of them!

@RM p.10

The response of each magic tradition to Warping is unique. Wizard's Twilight is the response of the Order of Hermes, and no non-Hermetic tradition has this particular response. Usually, unGifted wizards react similarly to mundane characters, gaining Flaws and Virtues (see ArM5, page 168), but Gifted wizards react more uniquely and unpredictably (see individual chapters).

@HMRE p.10

The response of each magic tradition to Warping is unique. Wizard's Twilight is the response of the Order of Hermes, and no hedge tradition has this particular response. Usually, unGifted hedge wizards react similarly to mundane characters, gaining Flaws and Virtues (see ArM5, page 168), but Gifted hedge wizards react more uniquely and unpredictably (see individual chapters).

Then look under the individual traditions to see "An elementalist..." (no specification about Gifted), "A folk witch..." (no specification about Gifted), "When a sorceress [Amazon]..." (no specification about Gifted), "When a sahir..." (no specification about Gifted).

So Sahirs' response to Warping is described just like all the other magical traditions'.

Now, what about the word "usually." Well, we know there must be exceptions. For example, you need not have the Gift for an infernal Sahir to undergo Vituperation. A holy Sahir with True Faith instead of the Gift, would undergo the divine version. We really need "usually" to leave the divine, faerie, and infernal rules intact; otherwise we get a contradiction whenever a character from such a tradition needs to follow these other rules.

I see only indications unGifted Sahirs should gain Flaws and Virtues as described in ArM5, not undergo Fatra Banya. What is written that points in the other direction?

[Erik_Dahl]

@ezzelino

First of all, thanks for the detailed reply! A lot of interesting things came up. Let me try to both summarize them, and briefly comment on them.

You're welcome! I really enjoy seeing the sahir rules get used, so thank you as well for exploring them so entertainingly. I’m sorry for the things in there that are confusing.

@ezzelino

In this regard, I think most people who have looked at the numbers agree. 5.5xp for each point of A-Iksir means an average loss of 2.75xp per year, which is almost negligible. I think it's a weakness in the RAW, but the whole point of the exercise is testing the RAW and seeing if they do produce 400-year-old-Sahirs.

Anything involving loss of experience points is tricky because they are so variable in play. Is 5 points of Awareness experience worth the same as 5 points of Solomonic Astrology experience? Probably not, since there are likely tons of high-quality books on the latter, and none on the former. That said, I feel like the negative effects of Al-Iksir shouldn't be severe, but flavorful. The experience points lost aren't intended to balance out the experience points gained from a longer life, but rather provide an interesting story and source of roleplaying for about a season.

@ezzelino

I wouldn't say "without any consequences". Starting off Poor means a character gains fewer xp until he becomes Wealthy. He loses 10xp/year after childhood until he buys off poverty, and 5xp/year until he gains Wealth. In Rashid's case, it meant a total of 24 x 10 xp + 4 x 5 xp lost. That's 260xp; given that the "typical" Minor Virtue gives you 50xp, it's between 5 and 6 Virtue points. Adding the Miserly reputation for overwork, the labour points used up (and possibly the fact that Rashid could achieve this only by heavily investing in being a good Weaponsmith) I think it balances out.

Oh come now, you can hardly claim being short a few experience points at age 20 balances out six points of Virtues, especially when most of those points you’re short on should go into recommended things like naranjs that don’t affect the experiment.

@ezzelino

This thing about True Names is interesting, and, as I said, with ramifications far beyond Sahirs.
It's also interesting to note that although a naranj "holds" a True Name, it appears that the True Name can't be "recovered" from it. I guess one could posit that, since a Sahir uses the True Names of his spirits only to summon them, and a summoning naranj is more "convenient", Sahirs don't learn True Names but instead learn naranjs, even though True Names would be slightly "cheaper" (in that they give back an xp to be spent on the corresponding Realm Lore). It would have been nice to see this articulated explicitly in tC&tC.

Well, not that much cheaper, since a summoning naranj for a Might 25 spirit costs 25 experience points, and a True Name for any spirit costs only 5 and you get one back. For my games, I'd prefer infernal True Names were rare, and non-infernal True Names rarer still. Also, I'd suggest characters should look skeptically at anything that purports to be a non-infernal True Name ("No really, it's perfectly safe! It's magical, not infernal! Use it, use it, uuuuuuuuuuuse it!").

Summoning naranjs are pretty good for other traditions, and I sort of imagine that they developed out of the early Suhhar’s attempts to incorporate them. Not a huge improvement for Sihr, true, but nice for say (Spirit) Summoning in that you don’t lose a Fatigue level. It could be argued that a hedge wizard who normally uses, say, Kabbalah + Adjuration to summon a spirit wouldn't lose the necessary long-term Fatigue level when the miraculous effect is duplicated with a summoning naranj, and that's extremely good, I think.

@ezzelino

Oh, this clears up a lot of things. It's not explicit that if the Summoning Total is below the Spirit's might, the Summoning fails (though now I see the intent behind what's written).

I think it says later that since some summoning arts can still summon without beating the Ease Factor, they just make the Summoning Strength negative, but Sihr doesn’t allow that. (Spirit Summoning works that way, right?) Maybe summoning naranjs should have worked like that; it might be interesting if summoning naranjs always just succeeded but penalized the other rolls by the difference. Ah, well, hindsight is Level 20.

@ezzelino

However, if this is the case, Penetration is next to useless to a Sihr (or naranj) user. Penetration enters the picture only if and when you can beat the Spirit's Might with your Summoning Total. But if you can beat the Spirit Might even with just your Summoning Total, your Summoning penetrates no matter how low you Penetration bonus (due to a high Penetration, Arcane connections, extra time spent on Sihr etc.). I can live with this, but it seriously changes what a Sahir (and Rashid, in particular) can do.

You still have to invest in Penetration to summon jinn with higher Might Scores. If you boosted Rashid’s Sihr score to 18, making his Summoning Total 25, his Penetration Total for summoning Might 25 Aisha still would be only 6: 25 (Summoning Total) + 6 (Penetration 1 x (1+5 )) – 25 (Might Score). He could take four long-term Fatigue levels and an extra hour casting to succeed, of course, but that’s a pretty hefty penalty. (Sahirs are lucky that they have this little rider in Sihr, though, as even Hermetic magi have to basically double the spell level when penetrating magic resistance.)

@ezzelino

I also think that the character creation rules should have been clearer on the meaning of "a spirit that you can summon". They should have stated "a spirit that you can summon with a roll of X without the use of taqa etc.". Or perhaps simply "a spirit whose Might does not exceed your Summoning Art + Presence".

Well, a sahir is formally accepted into the Suhhar when he demonstrates that he can summon a spirit at Majilis. This is sort of similar to the way a magus has to pass his Gauntlet. There aren’t any specific restrictions (though I imagine taking an hour to do it would be frowned upon), but presumably this spirit is the one he uses to do all of his magic, so I think he should be able to summon it without investing any additional resources.

I think this is another place where we’re running afoul of the whole “using character creation rules to model play rules” problem. When you make a sahir character, it’s intended to be ready for play, so we have to assume he’s been accepted as a sahir and thus has done everything he needs to get that Sahir Social Status Virtue. Getting access to a free spirit is part of that. But I don’t know, maybe as part of your experiment you could say that if he takes a season to go looking he can find another spirit of a higher level as he advances? Or let Aisha spend some of that vis she's getting to undergo transformation and increase her Might?

@ezzelino

Oh, this clears up more things! From the passage I quoted it seemed (to me, at least) that, although you still need to formally summon even a friendly spirit (in particular, say, a Ghostly Warder or a Magical Spirit Companion) you won't need to bargain with it to have him participate in Solomonic Magic - the bargaining being in some sense, a social rather than ritual aspect of the process.

I can see why you’d think that, but since it’s part of the Supernatural Ability, it has to be part of the formal process of summoning. Think of using Sihr as sort of a subroutine in the “doing magic” program: 1. Summon spirit, 1a. Offer taqa, 1b. check Summoning Total, 1c. check Penetration Total, 1d. check Bargaining Total, 1e. determine Summoning Strength, 2. Cast spell.

Part of the balance on Sihr is that it’s expensive to summon spirits with high Might Scores, unless you’re really good at summoning. It’s also sort of bending the rules a bit as far as the morality of summoning goes. (Spirit) Summoning is tainted with the infernal because the spirit has no choice but to obey the summoner’s call (and Binding and Commanding are straight-up infernal because they just force the spirit into service). Sihr summons the spirit and enforces an arrangement where it must obey the summoner, but will be fairly compensated for its service according to a special supernatural economy. The invisible hand and all that. Thus, Sihr is not inherently infernal while (Spirit) Summoning and its ilk are. So, the taqa offering is an essential component to the process for ethical reasons as well.

@ezzelino

I had wondered if that was the idea behind the rules, but had discarded for a simple reason: it makes creation of Khadim bonds impossible (except to spirits of Might 5). That's because the maximum amount of taqa to create a Khadim bond equals the minimum, i.e. the Magnitude of the Spirit's Might. Halve that, and you can't have the bond, unless you exploit the "round-up" for Magnitude 1.

I don’t follow you here. Let’s say Rashid wants to bond with Aisha, and that her Magic Might is 15 instead of 25. His Solomonic Alchemy score is 12, his Magic Lore is 1, and let’s say that he managed to summon her for a season with a Summoning Strength of 0. He generates a Magic Lore Lab Total of 2 (Intelligence) + 12 (Solomonic Alchemy) + 1 (Magic Lore) + 0 (Summoning Strength) + 0 (aura) = 15. This is exactly what he needs to succeed. He must also spend 3 taqa (the magnitude of the spirit’s Might Score), and his maximum amount of free taqa in a season is 6 (half his Solomonic Alchemy score), so 3 is certainly within his budget. Where does this activity seem impossible?

@ezzelino

Actually, my subconscious should be doing a lot of work I really don't remember (at least consciously!) what the next digit is, until I look it up. I think that the authors in Magi of Hermes just rolled dice.

Either that, or perhaps they just didn’t worry about it. I don’t think any of the authors would have just stopped developing the character if it suffered a Crisis at age 65 and died.

[Ramidel]

@ezzelino

I also think that the character creation rules should have been clearer on the meaning of "a spirit that you can summon". They should have stated "a spirit that you can summon with a roll of X without the use of taqa etc.". Or perhaps simply "a spirit whose Might does not exceed your Summoning Art + Presence".

@Erik Dahl

Well, a sahir is formally accepted into the Suhhar when he demonstrates that he can summon a spirit at Majilis. This is sort of similar to the way a magus has to pass his Gauntlet. There aren’t any specific restrictions (though I imagine taking an hour to do it would be frowned upon), but presumably this spirit is the one he uses to do all of his magic, so I think he should be able to summon it without investing any additional resources.

Spending resources is part of being a sahir - every spirit bargain either has taqa offered, service offered, the spirit has an agenda of its own (Spirit Companions), or the sahir in question is essentially enslaving jinn. Some sahirs are fine with the latter, of course.

[ezzelino]

@Erik Dahl

@ezzelino

Penetration enters the picture only if and when you can beat the Spirit's Might with your Summoning Total. But if you can beat the Spirit Might even with just your Summoning Total, your Summoning penetrates no matter how low you Penetration bonus (due to a high Penetration, Arcane connections, extra time spent on Sihr etc.). I can live with this, but it seriously changes what a Sahir (and Rashid, in particular) can do.

You still have to invest in Penetration to summon jinn with higher Might Scores. If you boosted Rashid’s Sihr score to 18, making his Summoning Total 25, his Penetration Total for summoning Might 25 Aisha still would be only 6: 25 (Summoning Total) + 6 (Penetration 1 x (1+5 )) – 25 (Might Score). He could take four long-term Fatigue levels and an extra hour casting to succeed, of course, but that’s a pretty hefty penalty. (Sahirs are lucky that they have this little rider in Sihr, though, as even Hermetic magi have to basically double the spell level when penetrating magic resistance.)

Ah, I see now what you meant! Basically, I assumed (for some reason...) that when I read
"SUMMONING PENETRATION: Summoning Total + sahir’s Penetration Bonus – jinni’s Might Score" it meant
"the summoning penetrates if Summoning Total + sahir’s Penetration Bonus – jinni’s Might Score is positive."
Instead it means "the summoning penetrates if Summoning Total + sahir’s Penetration Bonus – jinni’s Might Score exceeds the jinni's Might score".

So basically, for the summoning to be successful, you must:
a) match the jinni's Might with your Summoning Total AND ALSO
b) beat TWICE the jinni's Might with your Summoning Total plus Penetration bonus

@Erik Dahl

Thus, Sihr is not inherently infernal while (Spirit) Summoning and its ilk are. So, the taqa offering is an essential component to the process for ethical reasons as well.

"This Suhhar promotes FAIR SUMMONING, through sustainable summoning practices that are good for the environment (all that taqa boosts Auras!), good for the jinni, and good for you!"

@Erik Dahl

@ezzelino

I had wondered if that was the idea behind the rules, but had discarded for a simple reason: it makes creation of Khadim bonds impossible (except to spirits of Might 5). That's because the maximum amount of taqa to create a Khadim bond equals the minimum, i.e. the Magnitude of the Spirit's Might. Halve that, and you can't have the bond, unless you exploit the "round-up" for Magnitude 1.

I don’t follow you here. Let’s say Rashid wants to bond with Aisha, and that her Magic Might is 15 instead of 25. His Solomonic Alchemy score is 12, his Magic Lore is 1, and let’s say that he managed to summon her for a season with a Summoning Strength of 0. He generates a Magic Lore Lab Total of 2 (Intelligence) + 12 (Solomonic Alchemy) + 1 (Magic Lore) + 0 (Summoning Strength) + 0 (aura) = 15. This is exactly what he needs to succeed. He must also spend 3 taqa (the magnitude of the spirit’s Might Score), and his maximum amount of free taqa in a season is 6 (half his Solomonic Alchemy score), so 3 is certainly within his budget. Where does this activity seem impossible?

Ahhh, I see now. The underscored part was not evident (to me at least). After all, when you create a bond with a spirit of Might 20, the maximum amount of taqa you can spend is 4, so I read the rules as giving me only 2 taqa (4/2). Instead, the amount of taqa I have available equals half my (appropriate) Solomonic Art.

[Erik_Dahl]

@Ramidel

Spending resources is part of being a sahir - every spirit bargain either has taqa offered, service offered, the spirit has an agenda of its own (Spirit Companions), or the sahir in question is essentially enslaving jinn. Some sahirs are fine with the latter, of course.

Agreed. But where is the character getting the vis, especially during character creation? That's probably why I went with "that he can summon" as a qualifier. Every sahir should have a spirit they can call reliably in order to be an effective character, even if that means they have to promise big favors in return for their service.

[Erik_Dahl]

@ezzelino

So basically, for the summoning to be successful, you must:
a) match the jinni's Might with your Summoning Total AND ALSO
b) beat TWICE the jinni's Might with your Summoning Total plus Penetration bonus

That's right. I am sure there was a reason it's written the way it is (maybe having something to do with breaking out Summoning Strength), but it's exactly the same way Penetration works for Hermetic magi and other spellcasters. The casting total has to equal or exceed the effect level, and the penetration total has to equal or exceed the amount of magic resistance, which is over and above the effect level.

@ezzelino

"This Suhhar promotes FAIR SUMMONING, through sustainable summoning practices that are good for the environment (all that taqa boosts Auras!), good for the jinni, and good for you!"

Nice!

There is a kind of amusing hypocrisy in the way the Suhhar is like "We must all treat spirits fairly," and also "We will only allow you to join our club if you can demonstrate you are able to force a spirit to do your bidding." I am a sahir! I can do this thing! That I must never do!

I'm sure a lot of spirits have this jaded opinion of the whole Bargaining process. "Yeah, yeah, you are offering me NO TAQA, but you are so magically persuasive that I simply can't help myself, of course I voluntarily agree to these terms, happy to serve you sir. Feh."

If I weren't amusing myself so much by being flippant I might suggest that maybe it's something like the spirit's reputation increases from serving such a powerful summoner, or something like that. Oh, or maybe serving a sahir with such a high Summoning Total prevents Acclimation, so they are still getting something valuable out of the deal. I suppose the Magic Realm supports the idea that Might Makes Right to some extent, too.

@ezzelino

Ahhh, I see now. The underscored part was not evident (to me at least). After all, when you create a bond with a spirit of Might 20, the maximum amount of taqa you can spend is 4, so I read the rules as giving me only 2 taqa (4/2). Instead, the amount of taqa I have available equals half my (appropriate) Solomonic Art.

Right. And Sihr isn't an art in this context, just to be clear.

[Ramidel]

@Erik Dahl

@Ramidel

Spending resources is part of being a sahir - every spirit bargain either has taqa offered, service offered, the spirit has an agenda of its own (Spirit Companions), or the sahir in question is essentially enslaving jinn. Some sahirs are fine with the latter, of course.

Agreed. But where is the character getting the vis, especially during character creation? That's probably why I went with "that he can summon" as a qualifier. Every sahir should have a spirit they can call reliably in order to be an effective character, even if that means they have to promise big favors in return for their service.

Well, "during character creation," the rules assume that any lab activity you want to do includes enough vis. But you're right that effective sahirs (except possibly certain Followers of the Heart) need to have a reliable spirit on speed dial, and that means a reliable source of taqa and a decent summoning art.

[Jonathan.Link]

The rules for magi assume that, not all characters who are Gifted or who know magic.

[Sanctaphrax]

@callen

@Sanctaphrax

He doesn't look optimized to me. His best characteristic is Strength, which he doesn't seem to use much, and his Flaws look legitimately problematic. He'd probably be better off with Poor Quickness instead of Unspecialised, for instance. Plus he doesn't have any experience-boosting Virtue.

The Affinity has already been pointed out.

As for Strength, it goes into his Workshop Total, so it's a straight bonus to his Craft: Weaponsmithing. This provides a large amount of his progress out of Poor and into Wealthy. For a character being played, this would also matter for his magical crafting. So it is of a lot of use as it moves him into another experience-boosting Virtue (Wealthy).

Whoops, missed that. That does make him a bit more optimal.

Affinity's not really a replacement for Apt Student or Book Learner or Independent Study, though. Sure, it kinda boosts experience, but it's just a one-Ability bonus. And he never gets more than 3xp/year for it.

I'm not saying he's super weak or anything, I actually like the way he's built. But to me it looks like he could be made stronger without any shenanigans at all, so I don't think he's terribly optimized.

[Ramidel]

@Jonathan.Link

The rules for magi assume that, not all characters who are Gifted or who know magic.

The rules for sahirs also assume that.

[Jonathan.Link]

@Ramidel

@Jonathan.Link

The rules for magi assume that, not all characters who are Gifted or who know magic.

The rules for sahirs also assume that.

Don't think so, i think sahirs have half the maximum he can use in a particular activity being considered available for use in their seasonal activity. Hermetic Magi have Magic Theory x5 for use in a year. Pretty big difference.

[callen]

@Sanctaphrax

Affinity's not really a replacement for Apt Student or Book Learner or Independent Study, though. Sure, it kinda boosts experience, but it's just a one-Ability bonus. And he never gets more than 3xp/year for it.

No, you're right, it's not. However, it does count toward his Craft Total as well. So it's helping get to Wealthy faster. That makes it better than a typical Affinity.

@Sanctaphrax

I'm not saying he's super weak or anything, I actually like the way he's built. But to me it looks like he could be made stronger without any shenanigans at all, so I don't think he's terribly optimized.

I agree. I like the build. This build isn't so focused in something impractical that it wouldn't work for PC. Rather, he'll be good at other things a PC would like to be good at.

[Ramidel]

@Jonathan.Link

@Ramidel

@Jonathan.Link

The rules for magi assume that, not all characters who are Gifted or who know magic.

The rules for sahirs also assume that.

Don't think so, i think sahirs have half the maximum he can use in a particular activity being considered available for use in their seasonal activity. Hermetic Magi have Magic Theory x5 for use in a year. Pretty big difference.

I suppose that's true - the rules don't allow sahirs to stack taqa high for yearly activity like magi can.

[John_Prins]

@Erik Dahl

I'm sure a lot of spirits have this jaded opinion of the whole Bargaining process. "Yeah, yeah, you are offering me NO TAQA, but you are so magically persuasive that I simply can't help myself, of course I voluntarily agree to these terms, happy to serve you sir. Feh."

I imagine that the Summoning process creates a useful bond between the Summoner and Summonee, much as a familiar bond does. Not so strong, of course, but enough to offset some of the need for vis/aura by magic creatures to avoid declining power, or to fulfill a faerie's need for vitality. That's probably why some will agree to it without extra incentive.

[Ramidel]

@John Prins

@Erik Dahl

I'm sure a lot of spirits have this jaded opinion of the whole Bargaining process. "Yeah, yeah, you are offering me NO TAQA, but you are so magically persuasive that I simply can't help myself, of course I voluntarily agree to these terms, happy to serve you sir. Feh."

I imagine that the Summoning process creates a useful bond between the Summoner and Summonee, much as a familiar bond does. Not so strong, of course, but enough to offset some of the need for vis/aura by magic creatures to avoid declining power, or to fulfill a faerie's need for vitality. That's probably why some will agree to it without extra incentive.

I definitely assume that bound spirits don't need to worry about acclimation and are receiving a traditional offering. That said, jinn want taqa, and I imagine that magic jinn in particular would really like their summoner to share a bit of their taqa and plan silent betrayal if Master doesn't. And faerie jinn who don't get their taqa have a chance to engage in all sorts of stories about unpaid servants...

Of course, all of this is story fodder. My sahira concept has Generous as a personality flaw, so she is constitutionally incapable of not sharing the wealth and has a very dim view of sahirs who bind the mouths of their kine. ("Generous" for a sahir is almost identical to "Waster of Vis," doncha think?)