divine vis

I've been trying to find the section on divine vis and am comming up empty. Anyone know where it may be located. I've flipped through the divine book several times and can't spot it.

It's not really there. Basically, divine vis exists, but it is very rare and hard to find. You could use Holy Magic to extract it from a divine aura, and you could use the Eucharist (although this would be sinful). You could also extract it from the corpse of divine creatures (angel's blood, etc).

explains why I couldn't find it, I was hoping for a section like with the infernal that described how it was different to use...

possiibly less botch dice?
A increase in the spell level with out effecting casting level?
Bonus vs the infernal or infernal acts?

There may be other sources of Divine Vis like sunrays falling throug a church window on a certain (probably holy) day for Imaginem...
Our troupe has mysteriously acquired a wooden bowl which yealded a pawn of Aquam Vis afer the investigating Criamon ended up in twilight and experianced a strange vision meeting Saint Jerome. This pawn has not yet been used; at least our Merinita refrains from doing so. The pious Jerbiton on the other side is eager to investigate it.
Possible things to happen could be:
If used to sin, it will vanish leaving the caster with a vis less and a failed ritual or item...
If not used in a pious way it may disappear...
If the item containing it is used to sin, it will cease funktion...
Nothing at all, God loves all his children, magi and mundanes alike...
Well, we will see what will result in the best story once it it used.

I like that...


Or God helps you if you try to use your divine corpus vis to heal a penitent, but will cause pain (and botch dice) if you try to heal the mass murderer PC that has just slain everybody in sight.

PCs are quite a bunch of suinners, generally speaking, you know. Divine vis can easily operate like infernal vis in this aspect. They help in some aspects, but hinder others. or hinder everything you do that is not selfless AND performed in a state of purity.

Or it can just be normal vis.

A saga-dependent event.



Or cause his wounds to re-open each if he sins again. 8)

If divine Vis is a gift from God, one does wonder how or why he woud let it fall into the hand of magi.

Maybe for the same reason he let them have the Gift in the first place?

Who else would God have to use it for him?

The idea of an order bereft of virtuous people clashes mightily with my suspension of disbelief. Do you imagine the members of the order (Tytalus Magi being an exception naturally) to be on the whole less moral than other people?

I imagine an order that looks in many ways very much like the rest of the world. Magi have families, loyalties, and religion just like the rest of Mythic Europe's inhabitants in most cases the same families, loyalties, and religion.

Perhaps I misunderstood your intent, (language is never as clear as we'd like). I agree, that this question constitutes an excellent story hook.

Lots of reasons. Here are a few that come to mind.

So that through them, the glory of God might be revealed.

To test their faith and loyalty.

Because whatever it is He has them do with it, it works into His divine plan, so they better do it right or they will bring on the wrath of God.

He didn't. The magi are caught in a battle between the divine and the infernal and the infernal wants the magi to misuse the vis in order to mock God.

Because God works in mysterious ways and often doesn't reveal his intentions to humans.

Me too!

And that too!

In sinful use subtract the bonuses.
Vis use gives temporarily the humble personality trait. The level depends on the number of vis.

Some statues of Christ tears blood and/or his wounds bleed. I heard this IRL.

The Lord works in mysterious ways... The Lord giveth, and the Lord taketh away... Give unto Caesar what is Caesar's and unto the Lord what is the Lord's...

Yep. First and foremost, I'd say that Divine vis would only be allowed to be used for unselfish purposes, and/or purposes that further "the Lord's work". And that isn't for a mage to define, but some higher power - probably some angel figure on earth to speak the Word-o'-God, if it comes to that.

Just as Infernal vis corrupts, Divine vis would not allow itself (for lack of a better phrase) to be used for mundane purposes. Even a "wand of healing" might not fly, depending who was benefiting from the healing, what they were doing when they got injured, what they'll do once healed up again, etc etc. And The Lord knows these things!

It would take an exceptional mage (and Player behind them!) to pull this off, or it would require that the vis be invested in something and then given (or traded?) to The Church - that might be the best bet, unless the mage is comfortable in their ability to walk in the Name of Gawd at all times. (Yeah, get back to me on that one...) :wink:

Just found out some divine vis (well, tainted, at least) in LatL, p46, under "Noires Mountains and Western Argoat"

Somehow, a parable from the Bible comes to my mind:
A father gives money to his two sons before departing. Upon returning he asks what they had done. One of them invested it into some business and gained more money. The other hided it away. The father is pleased with the first one's solution but tells the second one he should have done as the other and used the money. The Lord expects the same of his children: To use their talents given by him. Well, this would include the gift, would it not?!
Having this in mind it might be wrong to refrain from using the divine vis as the Lord has given it to you to use it, not to stock it!

The Lord gave his children free will, that they of thier on choosing might love him. At least that a modern protestant interpretation.

Which bring me to two points. The one being we in the west today have a very different relationship with our churches today than our ignorant medieval ancestors. Much of waht we understand about 'God's motives' are the result of a lot of theological debate which lead to the reformation - a few hundred years after the reformation. In our medieval paradigm God IS and God DOES - in truth thats probably all we need to know. Determination of whether a particular event is the will of God is in the hands of great men of the church. So I spose, just about anythign goes, as far as story development in games is concerned.

The problem for we hermetic magi, or you scoundrels from ex-miscelanea, is that we do know God, probably more so than your average turnip farmer, and that we choose a different path. Having knowlingly rejected him any act on His part to our benefit must surely be motivated by attempts to bring us closer to Him. In short, I would suggest no divine boons in our games should come without a story of some sort when we actually try to make use of them, and they probably represent a lifetime of interest in the magi concerned by God. If my Magus found a piece of divine Vis I rather suspect the first thing he would do is get rid of it for fear of a lifetime of hounding by a divine host pestering me for conversion.

That's not how I run it in my game. The spiritual consequences of magic are a matter that fifth edition wisely leaves undefined to allow story space for all sorts of stories. (See pages 216 and 217 of the core book)

The text box on page 77 of RoP divine (Prescriptions Against Magic) makes the case that you can find wiggle room within the available writings of the time to run a game any way that you care to (without even going to simple step of changing the setting to fit your wishes) .

I've found telling a story about characters who have all knowingly damned themselves is tough. Character motivation is difficult because all of the PC's know that what they're doing is foolish. Identifying with unrepentant sinners isn't on the whole (at least for me and the players that I've gamed with) nearly as enjoyable as the more mysterious and personally relevant story about characters less certain of their standing.

Ah yes, I agree, but magi also know there are more forces in play than just the divine. Damnation is by no means certain, indeed many magi rather expect to live on eternally in their own ways such as among the restless dead at the cave of twisting shadows, as spirits, in arcadia, or a whole host of other possible endings.

I wasnt suggesting hermetic magic is a route to damnation either, only that hermetic magi having knowledge of more things rarely wish to be involved in the daily operations of the divine. I iagine most hermetic magi meet almost all the criteria for entry in to paradise. They have no problem believing in God because they see his work all the time, they can freely accept and wholeheartedly believe that the christ was indeed truly sacrificed for the remission of their sins, and on thw whole, they tend to lead fairly decent lives.

My point was more that magi wish to avoid bringing the divine into their lives, and such boons as divine vis are likely to do exactly that.

Perhaps I shoull write longer posts in future :wink: