DIY Mystery Cult - Later Melesians

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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I'm trying to work out a new mystery cult and would like any feedback or suggestions particularly on a couple of parts.

ArM Mystery Cult - The Later Milesians

Even before Pythagoras there was Thales the First Philosopher of the Greeks, one of the Seven Sages, considered the first Greek mathematician and astronomer, the creator of the Milesian Numbering system for numerology, and the founder of the Milesian School of natural philosophy. The cult draws on the mystical mathematical and astronomical skills that Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes, and Herclitus (I know that he isn't actually considered part of the Milesian School but he is in the greater Ionian School) expounded to investigate the Arche.

While the cult of Pythagorus (Fraternity of Samos) has spread throughout the Order of Hermes as a well known mystery cult, the Later Milesians are a smaller and more hidden cult composed mostly of more academic members of House Bjornaer, some Triamona followers, and a handful of others. The cult is fairly individual in nature as many members have a more solitary personality or find themselves caught up in investigating their personal arche and not progressing further.However there are gatherings at particularly auspicious times and places determined by observing the stars.

The First Level Mysteries of the World

It is expected that these two levels are done with the assistance of a Mystagogue. However mysteries beyond these are often self initiated as the cult understands that every mage will find their own arche.

1st Initiation - Know the Physical World

The initiate is taught mystical skills in numerology as a start on the path to understanding the nature of the world. In exchange the initiate is tied to the cult by binding promises of favors.
Gain the Hermetic Numerology minor virtue
Script Bonus +9, Target Level 15
+9 Gain the Favors major flaw

2nd Initiation - Know the Heavenly World

The initiate is taught the mystical skills in understanding the nature of the heavens and their influence on the world.
Gain the Celestial Magic major virtue
Script Bonus +9 , Target Level 12
First Initiation after a Major Ordeal (TL -9)
+3 Special Place and Time
+3 Quest to find a surviving writing by Thales, Anaximander, Anaximenes, or Heraclitus or another worthy text in a language that is understood by the initiate. Babylonian, Egyptian, Phonecian texts are good candidates. Similarly there are strong occult threads in Arabic and Hindu writings that would be possible.
+3 Mystagogue sacrifices time (a season) studying the found text with the initiate to determine the time and place

3rd Initiation - Know Thyself

Unlike the other First Level Mysteries this is generally self initiated. The initiate learns a technique to use their horoscope and their knowledge of numerology to cleanse and strengthen their body although this focus on knowing thyself can lead one to ignore minor things at times.

Gain an ability similar to a Magical aligned Sinnue Shem ritual. This is considered a minor virtue. No other ability of Gematria is gained. Ideally this is a use of Hermetic Arts instead of having to learn two additional abilities.
Script Bonus +9 , Target Level 12 (self initiation)
Second Initiation after a Major Ordeal (TL -6)
+3 Gain the Short Attention Span minor flaw
+3 Sympathetic (the saying has been attributed to Thales, both Islamic and Jewish traditions have this as part of their numerology traditions, the short attention span is a way to follow the path of Thales who is reported to have been so interested in studying the stars that he fell into a well that he didn’t notice)
+3 Quest/Sacrifice The initiate builds or has built an observatory in an area of no aura and spends a season making it a laboratory space only to give it up after the initiation.

The Second Level Mysteries of the Arche

At this level the aspirant is assumed to be self - initiating as the Arche is revealed in different forms to different magi even as the four founders identified Water (Thales), Vis (Anaximander), Air (Anaximenes), and Fire (Heraclitus). Note that the Arche has only even been known to be water, air, fire, mentam (spirits really), and vis. The assumption is that earth, mankind, animals, and plants are too connected to the base world to be the prime force and that imagenam is merely a reflection of things and not the prime force itself.

4rd Initiation - Find your Arche
The initiate determines the arche that they follow.
Gain ?
Script Bonus , Target Level
Third Initiation after a Major Ordeal (TL -3)
+9 Gain the Study Requirement major flaw

5th Initiation - Master the Arche
?

6th Initiation ?

  1. Is there a good way to create a Shinnue Shem type ritual that doesn't depend on also gaining two abilities? I'm not even worried about the other uses of the divine powers simply the shear XP cost of making them useful?

  2. I love the idea of connecting the mathematical insight that Thales in particular is said to have had with the very elemental based ideas the philosophers presented. But the only connections I can come up with are Imbuded with the Shape of Form, Personal Vis Sourse, Puissant, and Affinity. The first one is great, the second is ok but not really very mystery cult like, and the last two are dull?

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The Bjornaer already have a mystery that changes the name of the recipient. It doesn't have precisely the same effects - the Bjornaer mystery severs any existing arcane connections and sympathy links, and no sympathy links will ever work again. Downside, the mystagogue knows your new true name, so they can wreck you if you sufficiently irritate the Bjornaer, but historically no member of Ilfetu has ever abused this.

I'm not sure why the Bjornaer in particular would join the new mystery cult, but if they did it would be possible for them to develop a similar virtue based on the Gematria ritual. Also worth noting - you can only initiate Celestial Magic if you already have Planetary Magic, which is lost as part of initiating Celestial Magic.

(I actually do understand why at least Clan Ilfetu would make use of Celestial Magic - a number of their rituals need to enacted in the proper place at the proper time. Celestial Magic is helpful for calculating the proper time.)

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I start with the idea that Bjornaer magi do not all think alike. While they are all connected through the Bjornaer cult they can and do join other cults also. In fact as time goes on more and more would be interested in things outside of the purely the heartbeast. Just like there are many Criamon paths and multiple versions of Merinita magic I feel that House Bjornaer is ripe for traditions to spring up other than pure focus on the main cult and The Huntress in the Wood.

I view this as a cult started by a Bjornaer who was attracted to the idea of first prinicple not being the plants, animals, man and certainly not the an aspect of a pagan god but the pure elemental nature. Or perhaps started by a Jerbiton from whence it passed into a Bjornaer sept.

Or do you mean from pure game mechanics?

I feel Numerology works well to cast easily, quietly, and subtly in heartbeast form without chance of botches. That might not matter to a Wilderist but I can see it being something that might appeal to a Harmonist.

Celestial magic might not be quite as enticing to them as some other virtues but there is nothing wrong with it and it, to me at least, fits well with the image of knowing signs and portents. Is it perhaps as much observing the sky as drawing what we think of as horoscopes? Perhaps. Or something inbetween. Certainly the predictive abilities attributed to Thales lean into something like Celestial Magic and wouldn't have been done with the more Renaissance star charts that I think we tend to visualize. BTW, why do you think you can't initiate Celestial Magic without Planetary Magic? Some scripts might do that and it would make the initiation easier but I see no reason it is required.

Yes there is the Secret Name mystery. That's one of the things that made me think this cult might well have been founded by a Bjornaer. However my mechanical idea is less the severing of arcane connections (I wouldn't care if that was dropped) but a way for the initiate to gain a bonus on aging rolls similar to the Bronze cord. Again, a benefit that Bjornaer might care more about if they came across writing about using numerology and celestial magic to give them a means of helping them live longer. I don't think anyone would wouldn't join the cult only for it but it is a nice, flavorful step that feels like what a mage (even if perhaps not what a modern person playing a mage) might care about.

I think those three steps form a solid core for a non-stereotypical Bjornaer. Others like a Jerbiton (no botches in cities, quiet and subtle) or a follower of Triamona (again, quiet and subtle might help with diplomacy) might like rotes for similar reasons and Celestial Magic never hurts anyone.

Then you get to the cosmology of the Milesian/Ionian school. As I said it fits really well with the same type of thinking as the Anima. Maybe too close which is why I mentioned many magi stopping after the first level and exploring their conception of the Arche on their own.

But to me at least it makes sense that someone might be working on both their Inner Heartbeast and their outer magic at the same time. Probably not mechanically optimal as a player but so what!

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Some musing on what I think should be two or three initiation steps for the Second Level connecting the mage's view of Arche / The First Principle to the ArM5 system mechanically. The Arche should be elemental. Thales seems to have written things that could be talking about airy spirits but that feels like it goes too far afield even if I left Mentam in the writeup.

It almost feels that the Elemental Magic makes sense. It fits flavor wise as the mage realizes that one element can handle everything in a way. That's great if you get it at character creation but how would it work if picked up at magical middle age?

Imbued with the Spirit of Form is terrific and might work for the first initiation of the second level but it isn't something to really build towards. What interesting element type things are there?

My own bias shows. I tend to look at the Heartbeast transformation and feel that Bjornaer would embrace the idea that nothing except the talisman shifts with them so they look down on enchanted items because they might get left behind. But if you know the stars you can do your Celestial Magic with a stick on the ground if you need to and a Numerologist's book is a prime candidate for a talisman. So they prize Artes Liberales (at least the math and astronomy) but the tradition shouldn't focus on Alchemy, Philosophae, or the like.

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Regarding initiating Celestial Magic:

This Virtue includes and replaces the benefits of Planetary Magic, which is a required prerequisite. (TMRE p.48)

I don't think that Celestial Magic is valuable enough to warrant two separate initiations, like some earlier edition D&D "feat tax", but that's how it was written. Yes, Planetary Magic has some separate utility, unlike Hermetic True Names:

Once learned, the Name of Power may be used in other specific magical methods, requiring other Mystery Virtues — it is no use on its own; however, with those Virtues, Names of Power are of great value. (TMRE p.76)

But I suspect that a high percentage of magi who learn Planetary Magic instead to continue on to learn Celestial Magic. If they had simply called Planetary Magic "Lesser Celestial Magic", making clear that it was an entry-level virtue, and a better—and higher cost—virtue was available which builds on the earlier virtue, it would properly set expectations.

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Ok, I agree with you RAW but I don't see the point and would never force a two step initiation like that. I wouldn't object to it either in a specific Mystery Cult.

Oddly in some ways this cuts to the nub of creating a new Mystery Cult. Short of initiating purely non-Hermetic Arts there aren't that many interesting and useful virtues that feel like hidden knowledge.

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Am also interesting in hearing if your statement about not seeing why a Bjornaer would join was based on a lack of mechanical benefits or on perceived personality grounds?

Really I'd love that type of feedback from anyone.

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My consideration is I think Bittergeek is talking about the benefits not being good enough as there are better mystery cults, however, I accept my interpretation could be flawed.

The personality issue. My hot take is I really dislike the houses as caricatures. Every Bonisagus being a lab rat, every Verditus a craft mage, every Criamon being plain weird, every Merinita must like fae, every Flambeau Perdo or bang mage, etc.

How many of us are like our parents with the same interests? Most of us diverge a fair way. The "someone of that house won't do that" is just painful and tedious.

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My only objections to choosing Bjornaer first for a math-heavy mystery cult are a) they are already in a mystery cult, and some members of the House may have an issue with joining more than one^ and b) they spend a lot of time in a form that cannot do math. A vast majority of noble beasts lack the finger-equivalents and manual dexterity to scratch out complex calculations in the dirt.

It has nothing at all about the cliche about uneducated and grubby Bjornaer wearing badly tanned furs, mostly speaking at tribunal in grunts. It had entirely to do with cult exclusivity and not having any damn hands. Nerd out, journey to Islamic lands to find the best armillary spheres possibles, wear immaculate clothing and speak with a noble accent. It's your character, enjoy fantastic stories, have fun. But max out your Finesse if you want to use unseen arm and a handy stick to calculate horoscopes.

If you really want to create a new virtue for your new cult, invent one that allows the Bjornaer to transform into their heartbeasts with their carried possessions, like almost every muto effect. The sign up line would go around the corner. Also: the Irish will be puzzled as hell if you call a different group "milesians". Language is funny like that.

^ The Huntress cult is mostly comprised of a small minority descending from a faction of original Merinita, who joined the Bjornaer when Quendalon changed the focus of the House, and their pagan worship of Diana will not go over well if discovered. Since they are a sub-set of an already small group--and the entirety of House Bjornaer has less than 100 members in the world--the Huntress cult will barely have enough members for a decent D&D game.

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I do not see most Bjornaer as being unwilling to spend time in human form. In fact I see most young to middle aged Bjornaer as spending time more or less in whichever shape is appropriate. Then, as they get older most will start spending more time as their heartbeast. The idea that the mage is both not that the heartbeast is supreme.

I enjoy hearing your take on it because it is so different than mine. I am mostly looking at this as an exercise in what would a magical cult based on the Milesian/Ionian School look like in ME? While I like the connections I see to Bjornaer I don't see any reason to make a virtue around improving the transformation because nothing in the Milesian/Ionian Schools connects to personal transformations or beasts.

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I was fairly certain that was the case but not completely so. I hate the idea of "better" mystery cults. It kills any sort of role play around them because it more or less assumes that the characters are getting to pick and choose any cult they join with full knowledge of all the possible cults.

I agree. Unless you assume there is some form of behind the scenes sorting going on so that apprentices always end up in the appropriate house (I don't except in the limited case of Bonisagus apprentice snatching) I figure you are going to end up with pretty mixed bags with many mages paying lip service to their house goals and ideals and going off and doing their own thing.

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