Does a crozier count as a staff?

"Composite shape"? That's a new concept not found in the rules.
Compund items are discussed in the rules - those consist of multiple components, each of which can have a separate shape and material.

But an item made out of a single piece of wood is not a compound item - it only has one component.

It is a new concept (and not one of my introduction) but it bears some consideration in principle. Certainly it has no impact on RAW except to draw from the idea that the shaft of a spear is considered a staff- which would presumably also apply to a spear with a fire hardened point made of a single piece of wood. At that point the spear is at least both a staff and a spear, which suggests a shepherd's hook could be both a staff and a crook, and perhaps a hook as well (though there are no cannon bonuses for a hook).

Not really - what's new is naming it. Nothing more.

Take a look above:

This is basically 'composite shape'. There is nothing more to it.
Nothing new.

If I take a knife and attach it to a staff that is a compound object which is also arguably a third object. This is (up to a point addressed in the rules (whether it can get bonuses as knife, staff, and spear at the same time is not, but I think the general principle would be to take the bonus from the highest of the three)
A single object which is conceptually more than one object is not. The rules address a spear also being or including a staff, which presumably would apply for a single piece construction as well, but there is nothing in RAW addressing the idea of a single object of (to use a modern term) unibody construction being considered to be a collection of the composite shapes. As such it is a new idea so far as RAW is concerned.

In that case, just ignore me for the purposes of this thread.

This discussion brought to my mind a vivid image of a swiss-army knife talisman!

Blade - as knife: +2 precise destruction, +3 betrayal, assassination, +3 poisoning
Wood file: +3 Herbam craft magic, +4 Perdo Herbam
Metal file: +2 Terram craft magic, +3 Perdo Terram
Tweezers: +5 precise manipulation, +2 Rego
Lens: +6 affect sight through it, +2 Intellego
Screwdriver/bottle opener: +1 craft magic, +2 sate thirst, +3 revelry, +4 liquid flows
Can opener: +1 food, +2 sate hunger, +4 open metal containers
Swiss cross: +3 neutrality
The swiss knife as a composite item: +3 Muto, +4 resourcefulness
:slight_smile:
Jokes aside, I see merits in both sides of the argument. Leaving "canon precedent" out for the moment (and I consider precedents from MoH always a bit iffy):
a) I find composite items that call upon different shapes inelegant, design-wise. That's because they encourage magi to have swiss-army-knife monstrosities as Talismans, instead of iconic items like a sword, a staff, a crown or a cloak.
b) On the other hand, allowing multiple material bonuses, but a single shape bonus, creates a displeasing asymmetry, and makes things harder to adjudicate: e.g. in an item incorporating a feather, does the feather count as shape or a material?
I'd probably like it best if the S&M table were split into a Shape table, and a Material table, and you could claim only one Shape and one Material (maybe two) for your talisman - while being generous with the number/breadth of bonuses from each. I find talismans that the current rules engender gaudy and unmythical in the extreme (a wand of rowan with tiny inserts of magnetite, emerald, topaz, fire ruby and amber, with a tiny vial holding mercury on one end and dangling from the other a chain with links of silver, steel, gold, birchwood, animal bone, human bone ...). Fortunately, our troupe seems to tacitly stick to one Shape and 1-2 Materials of its own accord!

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This is what I consider a "composite shape" - a single material possessed of two different Shapes from the Shape & Material table.
I guess my original query could be refocused and rephrased as: If a single piece of wood is partly Staff-shaped, and partly not Staff-shaped, does the Staff shape bonus apply when enchanting it? Does it matter if 95% is staff-shaped and 5% not?

I just realised that "composite shape", or something similar is enshrined in House Bjornaer's symbol - a cone which is both a triangle and a circle.

One of the magi in our saga made for his talisman a necklace with three pendants, to claim three shape bonuses on top of the necklace/jewellery shape. While this approaches your swiss army knife, it is mythically not very different from the popular Christian necklaces with anchor, heart, and cross, to call upon faith, hope, and love.

So while it opens for extreme abominations, there is also mythic precedent for the composite shapes.

How crooked can a staff be and still be a staff? Does it have to be perfectly straight to count?

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Good point!
I have been fixated on modern staffs built to straight lines and equal diameter through-out. Forgive my unconscious biases.

Historically, staves are lengths of wood that are "close-enough" to a long straight piece of wood. I seem to recall the adjectives "knobbly" and "crooked" have been applied in various fantasy novels.

Is the answer then "if it can reasonably be described as a staff it counts as one"?

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