Does a crozier count as a staff?

A shepherd's crook/bishop's crozier is basically a staff with a curly end.
For Shape/Materiel bonus, does it still count a staff?

A post from 2011 A Staff in any other shape seems to support the idea.

Don't see why not.
It is after all canon that the haft of a spear can count as a staff for shape/material bonuses, (Arm5 p33)
so an actual staff with a curly end should as well.

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I would say so, staff is a very long piece of wood as opposed to the club which is a shorter piece of wood.

Considering the crosier is man-height, I would say that the staff is the best approximation (until you start sharpening or adding spikes to the metal part of the bishop's crosier).

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I would say that it can count as a staff, but it might carry some extra shape bonuses related to protection or herding.

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It's a staff. It has other bits as well, but sure, it's a staff.

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I would add that in many languages the sheperd's crook and the bishop crozier are indeed called the sheperd's staff and the bishop's staff.

You could reasonably argue (and I would) that a crozier is a type of staff.

Much the same way that clogs or sneaker or boots are subtypes of shoes. The fact that none of them have the word "shoe" in the name (in english), does not disqualify them from any shape/material bonuses that apply to shoes.

I was afraid that the curly bit at the end would inflict, what would you call it, a destructive shape modifier.

I hadn't realised that it was already known as a staff in other languages.

As I think of it as a shepherd's staff in my language, I did not understand the question at first. Deliberating it more deeply, I think that your concern has some real merit. Clearly, if you attach a crown, or hook, or spear head to the staff, it is still a staff, making part of a composite item, and composite items have the bonuses of all their components if the entire composition is enchanted. However, if the wood of the staff itself is bent into a crook, it is no longer a staff, and you could conceivably argue that the mystic resonances of the straight staff are broken and the shape bonus is lost. OTOH this means that the bonus does not depend ion the visual shape but on how the item is made; boat hooks and croziers could be made either way, and should it matter which?

So, the argument has merit, but I think it is overly complicated, and shepherd's crook should be a staff no matter the exact design, for the sake of simplicity if nothing else.


It's worth noting that the ArM4 adventure "The Bishop's staff" takes its name from a bishop's crozier :slight_smile:

Looked at in another way, if I take a staff and a knife and bind them together into a composite item, I conceivably have a staff, a knife, and a spear. Or just a spear, or any mix or combination of the three, which comes down to a YSMV decision.

TBH, I think canon is clear in that case. When you enchant a composite item, you have the properties of all the components. It is the non-composite items that may vary.

Your SG might decide that by attaching it to a staff the knife is no longer a knife but a spearhead, or they may not, or that because it is a collection of composite items it is not truly a spear even if it acts as one in combat. I think RAW has some grey area here.

I think canon is crystal clear for the shape and materials of compound items that have several types of materials... it's not crystal to me from RAW that the shapes are really cumulative. At least, there is no example listed of stacking shapes on compound items. I've been applying the interpretation that the shape is a choice, in my own games, and I've been toying with the idea that some generic shape bonuses (e.g. jewelry / clothing) only apply if a more specific shape doesn't apply (e.g. cloak, crown), but I know others allow sword-staff talismans that have a crown on a hilt shaped like a cross which I think is a fair interpretation of RAW as well... YSMV. If there are actual canon items that are published with several shapes giving shape and material bonuses, I'd like references.

Stacked shapes example: Paregro Mare (MoH p.78).

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Thanks for that. This Talisman does claim two shape bonuses. Funnily enough, one of the two shape bonuses seems to come from oar, on a ship described as oar-less...

A Shepherd's crook is a composite item.
Not like it was a single piece of wood, with the curly hook carved at the end.

It may be. It does not have to be. It is possible to make it by bending fresh tree and letting it dry. When I try to search I find sources suggesting either approach.

It's shape is a composite shape. No matter the material composition.

So you would rule that it counts for two components wrt the magic theory limit? Sure. MSMV