Hi,
Ah, Welcome Wunce again to the Wonderful World of Wards.
I'd note that people living within an Aegis don't Warp from it; this is because even though they are in the boundary, the Form of the spell, Vim, is applying to magic and not the people. So if I am in a Circle but the spell's Form does not apply to me, I likewise do not Warp. It would also be very strange to Warp from a spell that is not potentially resisted by one's Parma....
Anyway,
Ken
Oh, no. You're right, I was just thinking of Personal Range Wards.
If the Ward is a Personal, or Touch, or Group, Ward, it should Warp the person(s) who the spell is cast on.
If it's a Circle Ward, then I don't think that it Warps you if you are not the thing Warded against. Actually, it shouldn't Warp you even if you are the thing Warded against unless you are actively trying to cross the Ward constantly. If you are just standing around inside the Ward (or standing around outside the Ward), you are not affected by it. It is only when you attempt to cross the circle that you are affected.
P. 168 Ars Magica, Constant Magic Effects. "Wards are active mystical effects as long as they are protecting someone. Two notable exceptions are Parma Magica and the Aegis of the Hearth, which are based on the same breakthrough by Bonisagus.".
Seems pretty clear that wards cause warping as a constant magic effect. So watch that breakpoint (half a season) if you want to avoid warping. As to your other examples, Talismans are special and share personal effects with their creator, when touching. This can cause warping if careless, but in a game as dynamic as Ars Magica, it can be a real blessing. Lab walls (unless so created. You could make your lab your Talisman....) are not part of the mage. Talismans, when touched by the mage, are. If you don't want that protection, because you think the price too high, the suggestion by Callen seems to be the canon answer. Range : Personal, Target : Part. and tell your ST when creating it that it only affects the Talisman.
Who do circle Wards cause Warping to? Circle Wards are not actually protecting someone in particular.
For example, I cast a Circle Ward against Faeries around a Faerie? Does it cause Warping to the Faerie, who is trapped inside the Ward, or does it cause Warping to "all of Mythic Europe" who are protected from that Faerie?
The answer is that it clearly causes Warping to neither, as long as the Faerie is just siting there. It should cause Warping to the Faerie if he is actively trying to cross it --- but will only cause Warping as a constant effect if he is constantly trying to actively cross it.
On the other hand, if I cast a Personal Ward against Faeries on myself such that I personally am Warded against Faeries for most the year. Then, sure I will take Warping from that.
However, only if the effect in the Talisman actually affects the magus. The magus doesn't get Warping for effects that affect only the Talisman, even if he happens (because he is Touching the Talisman) to be within Range of those effects.
I don't think you're correct, especially since the rules (P. 168) mention that Aegis of the Hearth would cause warping except for a breakthrough. Those same rules state that wards are a constant mystic effect, as discussed and covered by the Constant Mystic Effect rules on P. 168. Can you give a counter rule or example from latter canon? As it stands, the only clear thing about wards (in my mind) is that they cause warping as a constant mystic effect to what's in them (won't affect your faerie, of course, it's got a might score).
As to "Only if the effect in the Talisman actually affects the magus.", where does it say that? I didn't see that line in the section on Talismans. It's important because Talismans are special. If it's affecting the Talisman, it is affecting the mage, for the Talisman and the mage are "magically" the same. Thus a personal spell is (Mage + talisman) and touch is (Mage + talisman) and Magic resistance is (Mage + talisman). The Mage and the Talisman are one. The rules give you a very clean out if you have a problem with a particular effect. Target : Part.
I’m not sure I can agree with how your interpreting “talisman and mage are one”. Your essential saying any effect that targets either the magi or the talisman has to target both and I just haven’t seen anything in RAW to back it up.
If for instance I wanted imbue a muto herbam effect on my wooden shield talisman to make it indestructible would it need a corpus component. Or if I wanted a creo corpus bind wounds effect would it require herbam.
Yes such effects could require a part target instead but I think such circumstances are common enough that if designers had intended such a condition on talismans it would be mentioned.
Not quite. It effects both if they are touching. The canon is quite clear, the mage and talisman share personal effects when they are touching. Talismans are special, and get their own section in canon because of it. Your example is flawed (to my thinking) because the way it would work is muto herbam to make your Talisman shield "indestructible". While touching, you are under a constant magic effect that does nothing to you, until such time as you became some sort of plant, by curse or action, at which time you become "indestructible" as well, so long as you are touching your Talisman. Now, if you if you were worried about Warping, you could forgo that protection by using target : part, so the effect only works on the Talisman.
I think this whole thing is an issue because people are ignoring the rules on constant magic effects. The canon is quite clear, it takes half a season to get a Warping point. Follow the rules and this stops being an issue. Do you embrace your Talisman while you sleep? Hold it every moment you are in the Lab? Probably not. I would expect the average mage to make use of his Talisman 8 to 10 hours of the day on the road. That won't cause Warping. For Warping, it has to be twelve hours a day for every day of the season. I can't see that happening a lot. I don't think canon is too worried about "constant magic effects". The rules for constant magic effects are, in my eyes, there to calibrate players who try to be "Concrete Lead Lined Bunker Man". If you want to have protective spells up twenty/seven, you can. There's a cost. But if you want to put up "Wizard's sidestep" every day while you travel for two weeks to your sister Covenant, the system doesn't ding you. Half a season is a lot of time. Think about it.
Talisman Attunement
AM5, p 98, col i:
"...Your talisman is considered to be a part of you as long as you are touching it. Personal range spells can effect your talisman, (and) Personal range effects in the talisman can effect you..."
Since it does not specifically state that such effects require "Target:Group" to cover both at once, I believe the phrase "is considered to be a part of you" (rather than "is considered to be an optional but separate target the equivalent of yourself", or some such) implies that if a mage casts a MuCo(An) (R:Self, T:Individual) on themself to change into a bird, their wooden staff talisman is equally effected and travels with, free of requisite or other considerations. That's part of the benefit of a talisman. To suggest that a compound talisman would require a requisite for every Form of every different element, and/or then Target: Group on top of that to effect both at once, seems to seriously undermine the personal connection to the mage.
It "is considered a part of the mage", the same as one hand or the other, no less.
To me it sounds like your saying that you can be effected by an effect that can't effect you.
I think it must be possible in the RAW to have R: personal T: individual effects that only target the magi or the talisman and not automatically effect both. The telling part of the rule is that it says "can be” and not "is automatically” effected by personal range effects. It's not a subtle point and it's not splitting hairs. I think the rules would have been written differently if the writers had actually intended the latter.
Yes the bond between magi and talisman is special and interpreting the "Rules As Written" as written makes it more special not less.
_
Not quite. I am saying you can be affected by the magic of an effect that can't affect you, but could. In canon, there is something to Magic and similar effects (Faerie, Divine, Infernal) that will give you Warping even if nothing is being actively done. Thus powerful Auras cause warping. Mages do not get Warping from a Magic Aura because they are aligned with the Magic realm. The realm does this without any spell or effect at all. Just the presence of potential magic (sort of like background radiation). Until there is canon to the contrary, I think we should assume that a constant effect on a Talisman will affect the mage who touches it too long. If you want to get really tight about it, the Talisman abilities are a constant magic effect. The ability of a Talisman to extend your range is magic in nature and doesn't turn off, does it? Constant magic effects cause Warping, right? But wait, if that were true, then the Familiar bond would cause Warping! In point of fact, it does cause Warping. A special case, " Every time the magnus invents a power in the bond both the magnus and the familiar take on some minor characteristic of the other." P. 105, Ars Magica, to be sure, but there. Again, I think you are reaching. I'm pretty sure that the moment it comes up in a game, the player who owns the Talisman is going demand the protection his Talisman can and should give him. I think you are reading to much into "can be", and given that there are no rules for "turning on" your personal constant Talisman powers, (It could be a very bad session. "the Infernal axeman has turned you into a tree and is now going to use his axe of bloody iron to harvest your soul!". But wait, the player says, "My Talisman has a ReTe effect to make it harder then steel and I share that!". "I'm sorry" you say, "That power didn't affect you as a man, and you can't think as a tree, so you can't turn it on now.". I'm pretty sure a screaming fit that ends the session is what happens next.....), just assume it affects the player, but don't give him a Warping point unless he's run amok, and you've warned him. That's the only reason we care, the Warping. Otherwise it doesn't matter. Again, I think if you use the rules for "constant magic effects" correctly, there's no issue.
Cuchulainshound, that was nicely posted. A very clean summation of what I was dancing around trying to explain in my clumsy fashion.
That is not because of the Ward-like effect of the Aegis. This is because of the effects that either protect the character from in-coming magics, or (if it is an Aegis hostile to him) reduce his Casting Total. These are constant effects that affect the characters within the Aegis. Normal Wards don't have these effects.
Yes, Wards are constant effects. However, for somebody to get Warping from them, that person needs to be constantly affected by the Ward. A person within a Circle Ward is not constantly affected by it. A person outside a Circle Ward is not constantly affected by it. A person attempting to cross the Circle is affected by the Ward --- so if that person was constantly trying to cross the Circle, sure they would get Warped.
A person with a Personal Range Ward cast on them would be Warped by it --- because they are constantly effected by the Ward. Nominally, I guess, the floor on which a Circle Ward is inscribed should be Warped.
Good point (about the faerie). So, instead imagine a Corpus Ward against people. A Circle Ward is inscribed about three grogs. Another three grogs are outside the Ward. Who gets Warped? The grogs inside the Ward? Or the grogs outside the Ward? Neither group of grogs can cross the circle.
The rules about Warping. To be Warped by a constant magical effect, you need to be affected by that effect.
You are misreading the rules.
Notice the word "can". You are not automatically effected by every Personal range spell cast on your talisman. You can be affected by those effects. So, a Personal Range Creo Herbam effect to make a wooden talisman immune to rot, will not affect a flesh and blood magus, because a flesh and blood magus cannot be affected by a Creo Herbam effect (even if he does happen to be within Range of that effect). If you are not affected by an effect, it doesn't cause you Warping --- you only receive Warping from effects that affect you.
Hi,
To Obi-Wan you listen! The cave....
Like Richard says.
A Talisman can contain Personal range effects that affect only the magus and not the Talisman, but the magus must touch the Talisman when the effect is invoked.
A Talisman can contain Personal range effects that affect only the Talisman and not the magus.
A Talisman can contain Personal range effects that affect both the magus and the Talisman, but the magus must touch the Talisman when the effect is invoked.
This special quality does not eliminate other rules. Requisites for Forms must be obeyed, though I would not increase the magnitude for having a "second effect," since the magus and Talisman are one. The Rules for Size must be obeyed. An effect that does not affect does not Warp.
Anyway,
Ken
That is the way I read it too.
Hello,
on page 51 of HoH: Mystery Cults there is a box on tattoos of Criamon Magi, it says that "A tattoo is designed as personal magic, so it does not cause Warping".
I think that this principle may well be applied to a talisman, in fact any effect instilled in a talisman is designed by definition as personal magic (Corebook page 98: "your talisman is considered to be a part of you as long as you are touching it").
However, this is my interpretation.
Right: the tattoo does not cause warping. However, that section says nothing to counter-act rules for any warping that may come from effects in the tattoo. Notice they specified this for familiars: neither the familiar bond (stated for both familiars and tattoos) nor the spells within it (stated for familiars, but not for tattoos) cause warping.
Chris