Also toss in there that the Divine does not exist, nor does the Infernal. God is a myth and magic no matter how hard you try, does not work.
However in Ars Magica, gods are real, magic works, demons exist and the methods used by Tytalus create the most badass self-sufficient and most driven and motivate magi around. True they are utterly all insane, but they are still freaking awesome.
Everyone seems to have this idea that the Tytalus are, in much the same way everyone seems to see the Tremere as monolithic and hive-minded, just a bunch of sadist and masochist who torture themselves and others for no reason. This is a very limiting and shallow way of seeing the Tytalus.
Let's look at how special forces are created in military services. Or take the classic methods used by Samurai or Spartan warriors. Or come to the Americas and speculate on the assorted tribes of Indians. All of these groups used practices that the Tytalus would employ in their training of a apprentice. Tytalus aren't simply hitting their apprentices with sticks for no reason, they are constructing an elite sorcerer who does not flinch in fear, who does not cower when having to face a conflict alone, who does not admit they are beaten.
Special forces are taken through some of the most horribly abusive practices that are allowed by law, and even experience things which if done to a civilian would be criminal. Their minds and bodies are abused, tortured, and put through both natural extremes as well as man-made extremes. They are pushed until they either fail or quite. A friend that went through a three week course through the Air Force, described a two day trial in which EVERYONE failed. It was actually impossible to succeed in the particular exercise, but the point was to see who would attempt to overcome the impossible.
Look at the classic legends around Samurai and Spartans and other elite soldier types. Sitting in snow for days unmoving. Living on only the food they can steal for months or years at a time. Being expected to remain unflinching in the face of superior foes. On and on, the specific training for that was not positive re-enforcement I guarantee. They were beaten, starved, and put through extremes for the single purpose that if you can survive the worst your master can put you through, then you can survive anything the cowards and weaklings that you will be facing will put you through.
Within my own culture, Indians have many rituals that are nothing less than physical brutality. A warrior is expected to never shout in pain, to not even allow this pain to show on their face. To show a grimace or a tear even at the age of eight or nine, a boy would be ridiculed, shamed, and punished for his weakness. Now I did not experience this myself first hand, the culture of my family has long ago been destroyed by Americana, but the stories and legends are there.
In the end, where so many Ars players see Tytalus as being "boring magi who are just doing what any magi would do" or are "ruthless bullies who torture people and created crippled abuse victims" or even the idea of them producing mental wrecks with no confidence because they would be broken mentally and physically, I think this is short-sighted and woefully boring to think.
If the real world has ENDLESS examples of cultures and practices where real people go through extreme abuses to their minds and bodies and come out on the other side as examples of the greatest warriors without equal, then I think the fictional world of Ars Magica can be given some slack for the awesome and fantastic story of the House Tytalus and what the great and powerful magi of Tytalus go through to prove their right to be called Tytalus.
PS. To use US military forces as an example ((sorry I am not read up on to many other nations military)) wherein the Tremere are the Army, and the Flambeau are Marines, Tytalus come from every branch and are SEALS. Hahhahaha Basically my point is, Tytalus is a small House. They chose apprentices based on some spark of self-focused determination. And the Tytalus master sees to it that for the glory of their name and the tradition of Tytalus, they create a fearless, self-sufficient, magi who is not afraid to take on any task with the expectation of overcoming it.
If your interpretation of what Tytalus training is cannot result in high self-confidence, you have to fix your point of view until you get something that works.
Tough love, spare the rod and spoil the child, lead him to question everything, make his mistakes short-lived, there are many tools available to straighten an apprentice. Sheltered life ain't one of them.
My brain shut down once I read reductio ad absurdum. Now I am not sure what I said. I keep reading my post over and over and it is like reading some foreign language written by someone who is really bad at their native tongue. Hahahahaha but yes, I do feel that the opinion held by people of what Tytalian training is should match what produces a high confidence magi. Just like the conversation about the Tremere, their training results in the Certamen focus. To me, this isn't because all of the Tremere are told by some philosophy to teach certamen in a step by step process to give them the focus, but rather all of the Tremere magi have come to understand that Certamen is the best method to accomplish what the House wants to accomplish.
When the insane prophet won't go to his hillside, then bring the hillside to Mr. Stubborn. ((or whatever that colloquialism is... ))
I just think instead of fighting against the RAW and insisting that a roleplaying game about magic and dragons and such must make real world sense, people should maybe just allow themselves to adjust their opinion a bit. I mean we allow magic to exists in the game, might as well allow abuse and torture make people gain a iron will.
Sincerely? I always think I am a bumbling fool... but thank you so much for that. I just managed to have the best ending to a long day I have had in forever! Thanks
Catching up on the thread. I have no problem with the Tytalian apprenticeship as written. Yes in reality it would probably result in a quivering blob of neurosis. But as a heavily dramatized take on extreme training methods it fits well into the setting and the house.
I would have no problem with a character trying to use different methods and failing to get a true self-confident Tytalus mage. Or just the opposite if a player really wanted a character to raise there apprentice in a "healthy" environment and get the same results (or better) as the standard horror show I'd let them. (Though they'd have to work for it.) I mean what is more Tytalus then proving the whole damn house is completely wrong about something.
That being said I had a hilarious thought for an alternative setting. It's all an act. The harsh apprenticeships don't really happen. House Tytalus produces self-confident Magi by tradition because they are the only house that treats it's apprentices like human beings. Using all the stuff that really is supposed to produce healthy self confident adults. Loving environment, authoritative rather then authoritarian discipline, good teaching, supportive autonomy yadda yadda yadda.
All the stuff in the House write-up is what they let the rest of the order think they do to their apprentices. It's a joke they are parodying the horrible ways other houses treat apprentices. This would also completely change the character of Tytalus and make them into more of a House Mary Sue. Because all that interhouse rivalry and mentor pupil enmity is also an act. Covering up a society of Mature professional adults who work well together challenging and supporting each other out of mutual respect.
I was going to post that the Tytalus years of apprenticeship are similar to boot camp. I was thinking of the boot camp described in Starship Troopers but a special forces/officer boot camp would work as well.
I totally agree that the Tytalus apprenticeship is very much like the fictionalized or at least highly dramatized versions of military training. As well as the very historical view that being harsh for the sake of harshness "toughens you up". Which makes it very appropriate for the game.
In the real world I know many military organizations are (slowly) moving away from that historical attitude, including US special forces. Not because the military is going soft or anything. They've just realized that taking time to be harsh for it's own sake takes time and energy away from other training. And the shear amount of training soldiers has gotten is more predictive of performance under stress, then being specifically trained to handle stress. This doesn't make it any easier on the trainee's. Special forces training is still insanely challenging. But instead of training you with torture, the military now tortures you with training.
The most likely way for a Tytalus to raise a non-Tytalus apprentice is when that Apprentice at the end of their training says "screw you and your mad friends; I'll be an Ex Misc rather than put up with this crap any longer". Which is a great way to get the "tormenting master" flaw, but could also be considered graduating.
(It is relatively easy to join another societates, and in many Tribunals Houseless magi are automatically considered to be Ex Misc).
Which does raise the question of what the failure rate is for House Tytalus. They're looking for a very specific kind of apprentice: one who will be strengthened rather than destroyed by abuse. Unless they are very good judges of character (or have plenty of Mentem to assess their apprentice's limits), they're likely to get it wrong.
I am sure their failures are more common than most every other House save for Criamon, but this is probably not something they can control for. I do not see it as being overwhelmingly impossible to find a Gifted child and then determine if that child is up to the task of being a Tytalus, Criamon, or ect. I think there is quite a lot of apprentice trading and haggling that goes on within the Order.
If a Bjornaer comes across a Gifted child who is analytical or highly spiritual or obsessed with culture and arts and shows no sign of feeling a heartbeast then I would guess they might pass the child on with the condition that in the future the favor be returned. Same for Tytalus, it would not serve a Tytalian magus to simply take any Gifted person and try to force the ethos of the House on them while ALSO having to teach them magic. If they found a child who was Gifted and yet seemed to lack the hardness or courage to face the challenge of being a Tytalus, they would certainly trade the child for a consideration later.
If you find two or three Gifted people and none of them match what you are looking for, then I see that as three magi who owe you consideration when and if they come across a Gifted child that none of them can quite handle.
In our current story I wrote up a boy who is Gifted and even at the age of 8 was often fighting adults and refusing to settle down for language and Artes training. Basically I was writing up a boy who ((and since it is the Theban Tribunal and we do things much more civilized than you barbaric European Hermetics, we can bid on what apprentices we want, hahhaha )) would appeal to a Tytalus. Strong willed, independent, and fearsome... as well as being cunning and somewhat unhindered by social morals.
I think magi in Ars can spot what kind of person will work well for a House and might even factor it into their own choices of apprentice. Sure they can't always pick a winner and sometimes they fail, but I think that would be determined by who the master is. The master is a 40 year old 10 years post gauntlet mage, then the apprentice is probably who ever they could scrounge up and the chances are pretty high that there will be some mishap or out right failure. But if the master is nearing 100 and has been a magus four times longer than they have been alive and has trained two apprentices already, or maybe more, then I think the chances are very very high that they will first pick a apprentice appropriate to their method of training and second even if the apprentice is less than ideal, know how to make the most of them.
It's easy to make a magi of anyone in some of the Houses, because the House is not all that picky or stringent for who they get. And other Houses are more concerned with WHO is doing the teaching and who the ancestry is of the charge. The Tytalus however care, and I would say on par with Criamon, care the absolute MOST about who they are teaching and must, and I really mean, MUST know in their bones that they are making a good choice in this apprentice. Regardless of the popular opinion, the Tytalus are a very special House and rare is the magus cut out for being honored with the title, Tytalus.
Sure. But I'm not sure that Gifted children are so common that magi can pick and choose that much. It will be easy to dump apprentices, because there'll always be someone who won't mind that their future Hermetic heir is a snivelling crybaby. But those with desirable temperaments are likely to be desirable to others as well, so it will be much harder to persuade someone to part with an apprentice with strength of character, bravery, or honesty. And trading favours only gets you so far on this...
A magus from a House with specific character requirements may have several false starts before they find someone worth training. Many will continue training incompatible apprentices because they cannot admit failure, or fear that they will not find another, or believe that any apprentice is better than none. Some of these failures will be weeded out by the Gauntlet process and end up in House Ex Misc instead (if they are lucky), and with others the House polices character (so while a blatantly dishonest apprentice may gauntlet as a Guernicus, they will never be allowed to be a Quaesitor). But some will probably make it through, to be an ongoing source of shame to their parens for years to come.
According to the Bjornaer, everyone has a heartbeast. And if they do the Ritual of the Twelve Years and turn out not to, well, they don't survive.
Which would instead, as i noted earlier, result in a house that essentially comitted communal suicide over time.
Because too much time would be spent on killing apprentices. Eventually there would be noone left.
Yes. I use them as people who lives for the challenge and the competition, that makes for a good story. The abusive idiots, that version is just stupid.
You equate challenge and abuse. They are nothing the same. And where in the world do you find the most effective special forces? Not in the countries with abusive training that´s for sure.
Hard training and abusive training are not the same. And why do you think most nations are moving away from abusive training? Because they can see that those with hard instead of abusive training end up with much better results.
The bad old "tear down and build up" abusive training is essentially just an excuse for bullying.
AFAIK, american indians never used abusive training. Plenty of -potentially- dangerous challenges, but not abuse.
Samurai were focused on discipline and self discipline. Sparta likewise.
You´ve watched waaay too much Hollywood history.
Take a look at what forces were most successful during wars, you wont find those with abusive training doing best. In WWII, German forces almost always were the overall best, and what kind of training did they focus on? Individual skill, caring for your buddies, professionalism, even their "tough" training was not among the tougher ones. Of the main countries, USA had the most abusive training, with parts of Japanese military being worse after 1936 or so(after the hardline facists managed to put more of their people in controlling positions the military), neither resulted in effective troops.
I think you´re missing things here. Yeah, rituals. Not a matter of getting smacked around or something, but training and preparing for challenges and tests, often in ritual form, try to prove that you were able to do or handle things. AFAIK, the training was not abusive(though im sure there were exceptions).
Not really no. Facing troubles, adversity and hardship has nothing at all to do with abusive training. Personal experience and development also have little to do with intentional training.
And if you actually look at what USUALLY happens, a lot more people breaks down under hardship than not.
Generally, if the trainees hates the one training them, the training will be ineffective. If the trainer is respected, it´s usually good enough. If the trainer, despite harsh training and tough challenges is the person the trainee will go to with personal troubles, that´s when you get the most effective training, because there is both respect and trust. The third kind is also overall the kind of leader whose troops will follow literally anywhere.
And SEALs usually get in trouble when training against our conscript coastal rangers. Which uses very tough training, but does not encourage or condone abusive training.
And only time i know of when they had a joint training that involved the unit my cousin was part of, so called Airbase Rangers, which together with MP-Rangers and BaseSec were created specifically to counter special forces, their job is to detect special forces before they reach their target, then track them, hunt them down and annihilate them, the SEAL time involved that time, called my cousins unit "a very nasty shock", after being declared very, very dead earlier that day during the exercise.
They didn´t manage to get even within 5km of their target. If real munitions had been used, their casualties were expected to have been 100%(more like 500% considering the overkill used). My cousins unit had zero casualties(hard to hit something you don´t even know where they are).
Despite knowing about it in theory, the SEAL unit completely failed to understand just how much of an advantage a welltrained dog and a good doghandler like my cousin could be.
Those units consider SEAL, Spetsnaz or other special forces as dogfood. Figuratively and literally.
Fine, then you wont object if i say that my magi gains all Hermetic Virtues by dancing ballet. That´s the same level of reasoning.
Do you know what the basics of creating good special forces is? Pick some people based on tough requirements, give them plenty of training(OR give them plenty of access to training) and make sure you tell them thoroughly that they ARE the best...
And now, i´m already late for my SC2 battle... >>>
To be fair, you can do that.
Initiation of the Dancer
Script Bonus: +4
Mystagauge must spend a season teaching the student ballet dance.
Student must spend a season performing in ballets for the cult.
Student gains free expression.
The most effective special forces? Wouldn't that be determined by combat effectiveness? Not training but actual combat?
Hardly. I don't equate abuse and hard training. There is miscommunication here, and more than likely on my part because at times I ramble on for no good reason. I know precisely what most of the special forces training is for the 1st Special Operations USAF, and I speak with close friends who insist that training in Det 1 is the most insane and hardest thing anyone can possibly go through. However, at no time was I inferring that the trainers are simply abusing their trainees. Actually I need to reread what I wrote but I don't think I described in detail much of any of the methods I called abusive or hard training.
So to clear it up I am not intending to equate abusive and hard training. Though for f-sake the terms can be interchangeable depending on who is looking at it from the outside. Is it abusive to have someone stay awake for 48 hours and then have them stand the entire time in a sub-zero room and have them complete hand-eye coordination tasks? Some would say yes, others would see it as hard training. No need to quibble over a mistake in wording.
Again perhaps our terminology of abusive is different. Starving someone and expecting them to trap and kill and scrounge their own food supply at the average age of 13, may or may not be abusive to someone depending on who is talking. The ritual of manhood among the Arrapahomi indians of America, my father's tribe, BTW, traditionally involve three tests of a person. Courage, will, and determination. Some of the rites involved ritual burning with heated stones, while often tattooing was involved. At times a man was expected to pluck the hairs from his genitals or pierce the flesh with barbs. A boy was expected to be able to be bitten over and over by wasps and never let loose a cry or grimace of pain. Ect and ect.
Sounds like abuse, but to others including my grandfather it was a method by which you taught the boy that his will can overcome hardship.
As for samurai, I can only go with the stories, both fictional and non-fiction which offered descriptions of hardships inflicted by a master training a student which... cutting the palms of the hands and forcing them to carry wood sounds abusive, but I would call hard conditioning.
Again, no reason to quibble over my use of abuse instead of hard training.
Don't be a complete asshole and assume what you do and don't know about someone by what you read on a post on a forum. I got most of my information on the Spartans from two books. The Spartan Army, by Nicholas Sekunda, and Sparta in Modern Thought: Politics, History and Culture
by Ian Macgregor Morris. They describe in one section, the boys of the city, ranging from 11 to 14, taken into high mountainsides and instructed to sing the multitude of soldier's songs of their people. As the boys fell asleep or stopped singing from soreness in their throats, they were then whipped with reeds tied into clubs. The Spartan culture crumbled for many reasons put forward in the one book, mostly to do with their class system, but there was no lack of description of what my poor suffering Hollywood mind would assume people would call abusive. But maybe my mind is rotted from watching too many movies.
As for the Samurai, I only go on silly books about samurai that talk about them in a overly honorific and idealized manner, that is true. Most non-fiction books you find written in English in the US about samurai are certainly written from the gaijin perspective of seeing them as legendary figures of mystery and romance. Even the endless books I own on Noh theatre are somewhat overly fond of using a heavily romanticized way of talking about samurai and the class in the performances. ((Yeah so I was really into Noh theatre at one time but haven't been bothered to read or talk about it in a decade... wow I think I am going to break some books out and reread some))
Oooooo.... that guy is sssssoooooo cool. I mean kwel. I don't care who's military is superior to who's. I find the need for military a bad joke. I think most people in the military are douchebags and having grown up in a Navy town with the world largest naval base, two Air Force bases, the CIA headquarters in our backyard, and SEAL training grounds everywhere, I honestly can say most people in the military are creeps and jerks. That said, they do what all nations needs doing, killing people to protect the interest of a nation. I am not going to moralize what they do except to appreciate that they will do it for people they don't know. They will do it for whatever ideals they have and that is impressive.
Soooo.... your cousin beat a bunch of SEALS in a training op. Well done. I guess... I think it's all a bunch of silly men playing war.
But again let me reenforce my previous statement. I think we have confusion over my intent in using the word abuse. It's kinda annoying to have this kind of debate about something that shouldn't be a issue but so here goes, my final explanation of what I was saying.
Definition of abuse:
Abuse: :
1
: a corrupt practice or custom
2
: improper or excessive use or treatment : misuse
3
obsolete : a deceitful act : deception
4
: language that condemns or vilifies usually unjustly, intemperately, and angrily
5
: physical maltreatment
Now over all when I was using the word abuse, I was meaning that their minds and bodies were taking harm. They are "abused" by their training, meaning that when they are being instructed to stand in cold water for a hour and then run up a hill, their legs are being abused by the hardship they are enduring. I didn't mean that the instructors were misusing them, or using language that unjustly vilifies their legs. Perhaps the first definition might apply, but I rather dislike that one for what I was trying to say. However, Dire, you quite possibly thought I meant one of the other definitions perhaps number 3? Obsolete : a deceitful act : deception?
If you did then yeah I see our problem.
What I should really do is go back and edit my post. Hell all of my posts to change the word abuse to a word that better describes what I meant. If I have time I will do that. Then it will completely clear up all this confusion.
Well except for some of the stuff like me watching Hollywood and not knowing what my people the Indians did as part of their culture, your confusion there I fear is terminal and most likely your problem and not mine... though I may be wrong.
Uhhh... no I don't. I have a good idea but first hand, nope.
I think you have to feed them as well. Oh and give them bullets. And occasionally give them new clothes. And... this list is going to be pretty long.
Yeah I am being a smart ass and being silly and I would use big fancy debate terms but I am to dull witted right now, except to say my snarky silliness is every bit as jejune as the following:
But in your game if you want your mage to do something as ridiculous as that, then go ahead. If I was in your troupe I would not allow it. I think ballet dancing might not even have been developed yet but then again I haven't watched too many movies about ballet so I can't say I am a expert. I have to ask though Dire, since we are on the topic, is the ballet dancing Performance Magic? Oh and is it of a particular house or can any master teach their apprentice this way?
Again I don't think I would let this go on in my game, it seems silly. However in my game, the Tytalus go through un-described methods of teaching which most people outside of the House would consider torture and abuse, and this produces a magus with Self-Confidence. So I won't besmirch you and your group for using ballet, if you return the favor and not knock mine for playing the Tytalus in the general way the books have written them.
Give me basic @ Paris Island. Give me 30 months of seal training. Hell give me 15 years polishing door knobs for a crazed tytalus mentor. But what ballet dancers go through is insane.
