Effects of cold in PeIg spells

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

Ok, so the spell guidelines say "chill a person so they lose a fatigue level" is base 4, and the higher level begins to do actual damage (lvl 5 +5 dam, lvl 10 +10 dam).

Should higher levels be able to fatigue rather than damage?

If yes, should it be 1 extra Fatigue per magnitude, or per two magnitudes (due to the added complexity of not wanting to cause real damage)

If no, this would be because any further cold would cause frostbite, and thus real damage, right?

I know one could just make do with 1 fatigue level, and then make the Duration Diameter, costing 1 fatigue per round. Those 2 minutes should be more than enough to take most people down.

But IF you allowed the spell to cause more than 1 fatigue at once, this could easily become the easiest and most popular "pacification" spell vs. magi. Since it does no damage, you can get away with it easier. Plus it's a relatively low level spell (considering it could become a one time pacification spell, as compared to a 1 round killer!), you can get a decent penetration.

This seems a bit easy, so I'd consider allowing any Fatigue after the first level to be resisted by a Fatigue Roll vs. some set difficulty (9 perhaps ???).

So the spell would end as:

Incantation of Winter's Drowsiness PeIgXX
Voice/Momentary/Individual
(Base 4, +2 Voice)
Causes temperature to drop rapidly, making the target extremely exhausted. First Fatigue level is lost without any resistance roll allowed. Second and subsequent levels may be resisted by a Fatigue Roll of 9+. Warm- or winter clothing may give a slight (+1 or so) bonus to the resistance roll.
Level 10 is 1 Fatigue
Level 15 is 2 Fatigue
Level 20 is 3 Fatigue
Level 25 is 4 Fatigue
Level 30 is 5 Fatigue

2

I would go for multicast. A higher level spell would simply cause more fereezing, and then, frostbite as you said. Quite a difference with actual loss of fatigue. igf you want to cause a drop of 2+ levels at once, multicast the spell. More power do0es not mean more fatigue, just more cold.

Between you and vetrenius I think I have found the "slapping" spell I was searching for.

Xavi

3

Might make that 7+magnitude of spell or something instead?
Sta 3++Long-Winded would rarely have a problem vs the spell otherwise.
Hmmm, meh, i dont know, its ok as it is even if those with the right virtue and/or high Sta will likely avoid the effect most time.

4

A chill will make you tired, a frost will start to hurt, a great frost will kill...

In order to do multiple fatigue levels of damage, I'd advice using PeCo - it is more direct, and allows you better control of what you're doing.

5

I don't think that chilling someone would work in that manner. You cool them down and they loose the fatigue level, but they don't become more cold as the spell goes on. They might loose fatigue faster in their chilled state but I don't see that 1 fatigue per round is justified.

Alternately you could design a spell that does make the target more cold every round I can see this leading death very quickly but I may not have the correct medieval mindset.

6

Agree.
My call would be that a person chilled like this would be unable to regain fatigue untill he got some warmth back in his body.

7

This applies very directly to my character for Light of Andorra over in PbP land, who has a Major Magical Focus in Heat. I’ve been planning to have him use something like this trick.

Since the RAW give no guidelines for multiple fatigue level drain and instead jump straight to damage after the loss of one fatigue level, my thought was that PeIg can’t really be used that way, though arguably PeCo could (but the base level is higher). I think the best you might be able to do would be multicasting Wizard’s Icy Touch or similar. Although, as someone pointed out in another thread, this might run into some realism issues (how often can you chill someone without giving them frostbite?).

For the fatigue drain over multiple rounds, forcing a Stamina check every round to see if you lose fatigue seems to be pretty standard from what I’ve seen (here and in the spell wiki).

8

Yes.

More cold will have more serious effects, thus damage.
The multicast has the same problems.

1 spell/round is ok, as you'll chill, heat, chill, heat... which'll cause fatigue, but more than one should instead increase the cold, thus doing damage.

As per multiple rounds, yes, the stamina idea is a good one, and seem coherent with realism

9

This is what I have gone with , I ahve always thought that if it gets colder it starts doing physical damage. My impression is that it takes time to lose conciousness (fatigue) through cold and that seems to be supported by the spell gudielines

10

I certainly see both the "realistic" (even regarding medieval "physics") thing about such a PeIg spell only causing 1 fatigue level. Be it cast repedetly round after round, lasting for more than one round or multicast several times in the same round.
A certain amount of cold exhausts you immediately, further cold hurts you (frostbite).
Lasting cold does not keep exhausting you in the same way. You just don't get your fatigue level back, while in the cold. Further excertion over time might result in more exhaustion, but not immediately.
Also a game-balance thing, as this is too easy. It actually suits me a great deal.

As we see in the Pe Ig guidelines, only the loss of a single fatigue level is mentioned. Higher levels result in proper damage. The same goes for PeCo, base 10 is the loss of fatigue. But here we see that causing a Light wound is actually easier, Medium is the same, and so on.
Propably because PeCo is more direct and brute force, so damaging is easy, while delicate work - like merely exhausting soemeone - is more difficult. And PeIg in essence chills a person/area, and the fatigue is a side-effect, with more cold doing real damage, just like being exposed to natural winter and cold. It makes sense in it's own way.

So what I'm getting at, is that the cold-based-fatigue caused by spells can't be stacked, the cold needs to persist and in time you'd drive someone even more tired, or even unconscious.
But what about the direct PeCo spells? The guidelines don't support more than 1 fatigue level, but should they be stacted? From a game balance point of view, I'd say no!
But should there be no way to instantly render someone unconscious? You can kill outright, but not the lighter version to incapacitate? I know it's harder, because the magic must be more subtle to avoid real damage, but still...
IMHO stacking small spells like this, either multi-cast in the same round, or cast consequitive rounds, should not work. But Pe Co guidelines should support higher level fatigue spells. As I mentioned in my original post, either 2 magnitudes for 1 fatigue after the first, or letting subsequent fatigue levels be resistanle with a fatigue roll.
As I see it, taking a magus down with non-lethal force should be harder than killing/maiming him. After all if you could take someone down with mild legal reprecussions, a lot of magi would do this with only light suspicions of foul play or minor grievances. And then letting Tribunals and Quaesitors decide the matter. But making it harder than killing, results in the way things are now - at least IMS - that major beefs and good indications that someone is a criminal, is what it takes before some resorts to physical force.

Mind you, IMS we have seen iron clad evidence that Diedne is back, and there is a lot of suspicion and paranoia. Some magi might be diedne-sympathetic, someone else used the conflict to grab power or wealth, someone just wants the conflict to escalate. So, if "non-lethal" custody was too easy for hoplites to use, they'd bring just about half the Order in for interrogation by the Q's.

11

Since non mortal damage causes fatigue I can easily see PeCo spells causing several levels of fatigue loss with a single spell ("a hard punch in the stomach" so to speak) while heating cooling, rinse and reperat might need a longer period of time to achieve the same effect. It is not the same to put 5 light wounds on someone cutting him all around the body that taking the heat out of him.

Seems that a strategy based on fatiguing your rival would need a strong defence as well, or fast casted teleports to avoid retribution while he strikes back until he is too fatigued (read: inconscious) to be any treat to you.

Cheers,

Xavi