Elementalist Questions

So, in my current game one of the players is playing an Elementalist and over time several problematic questions have presented themselves that I don't have proper answers to.

Summoning Containers
I'm a bit puzzled by the magical containers used in summoning. It suggests that elementalists use containers to carry summoned things around and such, but it does not appear that they could fit an elemental of more than Might 5 into a container and still be able to carry it (Might 10 is the size of a cat, Might 15 the size of a human, and it gets worse from there.)
It's even worse when trying to figure out what to do with philosophical summoning. I saw it suggested in another thread that you could summon a tornado into a pot and then throw it as a kind of tornado grenade... but wouldn't a tornado that fits inside a pot be a really pathetic and tiny grenade? And wouldn't it naturally die out pretty quickly while still in the pot? Similar issues occur for firestorms, and the best a water elementalist seems to be able to manage is a sort of water balloon.
Am I missing something? Do summoning containers somehow shrink and sustain the stuff summoned into them, like some sort of ancient medieval pokeball?
Finally, when using philosophical summoning, are the summons obviously grabbed from the surroundings or do they just sort of materialize? If only a few bears live in a region and an earth Elementalist keeps summoning bears, does he quickly run out of summonable bears?

When you use Controlling to give a command to a creature, how complex can the command be? Is there any reason you can't just command something to be totally loyal to you, and thus skip ever having to using Controlling on it again?

That not every poster on these boards understands or follows the Rules as Written?

Sorry, what supplement are you pulling this out of? Got a page reference? (So I don't have to dig thru everything...)

I'm asking about non-hermetic Elementalists, from 5e Hedge Magic.

Firstly, Size and Might are determined separately. Thus, a Summoning Total of 20 could yield a Size 3, Might 20 elemental, but size or Might could also be substantially lower if the caster so desires.

Concerning Summoning Circles:
According to the description of the Ring Duration, a hermetic magus can move 10 paces per round while drawing a Ring. Since a pace is about 3 feet, this leaves us with a circumference of 30 feet. Diving by pi gives a diameter of 9.5 feet. Not bad for six seconds work! The dangers of using larger rings are, IMO, fairly minor if the target lacks Intelligence as elementals do. In any case, circles large enough to contain even a large elemental are fairly easy to create...

Using the same formula, we get the following diameters with extra time:
2 rounds = 19 feet; 3 rounds = 28 feet; 4 rounds = 38 feet; 5 rounds = 47 feet.
Don’t forget that characters with Ring/Circle Magic (or its equivalent) can scribe their circles at twice the regular speed (doubling the circumference).

Concerning Summoning Containers:
While I don’t think the container can shrink an elemental, if you’ll look closely you’ll see that while Earth and Water summon elemental materiel, Air and Fire summon phenomena instead. Indeed the “Size” of such things would be difficult to determine in Mythic Europe. Furthermore, the “Hot” elements (Air & Fire) are expansive by nature anyway, but here they are artificially confined and compressed by magic.

Concerning the Taming of Elementals:
Using a standard use of Controlling to command an Elemental’s loyalty strikes me as circular logic (I command you to follow my commands!). I would, however, give serious consideration to allowing a Theurgic elementalist to Tame and/or Train elementals as a seasonal activity as per RoP: M using his Element/Controlling Total…


It seems I missed a few questions when I was writing my first draft this earlier so to expand...

As a general rule, I would allow an elementalist using Controlling to able to give any command a trained animal could be expected obey (Elementals are, typically, of similar intellect)...

Ring/Circle Magic - what is that then? In what book? Because it sounds interesting.

minor 'mystery' of the Columbines IIRC

The table on page 23 lists the Summoning Total necessary to affect beings of different Mights and Sizes, but elementalist need only worry about the greater of the two. There are certainly beings the size of a cat with more than 10 Might.

Yes, a summoning container does not have to be large enough to actually hold the summoned being. Like the jinni of the lamp, or a lightning storm captured in a bottle-- the elementalist just has to able to summon a being of the desired size and Might.

They do just sort of materialize, but they are actually taken from the local region and so the elementalist will quickly run out of summonable bears. In fact, I would imagine that if he draws a circle and summons a bear into it, and then draws another circle and summons another bear, the bear in the first circle appears in the second. :slight_smile:

This strikes me as very similar to asking a genie for more wishes. :wink: Anything you could ask a trained animal to do seems like a good guideline to me.