This situation came up and we all sat around wonder at the 'humor' of this one...
A Verditius can open an item that holds (say) 128 pawns of Vis. This takes him a whole season..
Okay thats simple enough.
Now the same Verditius opens an item that holds 1 pawn of Vis. This takes him the whole season...
This doesn't seem right. It is most certainly RAW, but it seems ridiculous that he would need to take that long to do the second task.
In the above situation, the magus needed to make two identical items, each requiring one pawn...This would take him two seasons..
We thought perhaps that this should be changed along the following lines:
Magus may open any number of items with and amount equal to (or double) his Magic Theory.
Certainly this isn't the same number of pawns that he can wield in a season, but it seems...more equitable.
Opening an item is a lengthy process, requiring great skill, timing, maturation... While the number of pawns you invest in it is just a mesure of the raw power you pour in it.
It's a little like to transport something from one place to the other: While you may be able to lift more weight than me (invest more pawns), the distance is still the same, and thus, you'll take the same time is you carry a sheet of paper or 5 Ars books.
I'd say thats multiple lab activities.
As long as you get it all inside your lab total, you can do it.
The number of pawns of vis you can use per season being your lab total in this case.
If your troupe does not agree, well, you can still put togehter multiple smaller lesser enchanted items in a season. Give em the same trigger action, all of them, for the EEEEEK! effect.
Ah, but you're a whimp, and can only carry one book. You also only have one hand, because you also insist on carrying that beer back and forth.
I have a truck and can carry '120' BOOKS....all at the same time. It takes you about 5 five gizillon trips to carry all those books, but I can do it in one trip.
Think of each book as opening an item..Sure I have to carry it a mile, but I have much greater ability than you . What the rules are saying, is that I have to make the trip with one book...
I certainly have more ability than you (truck space), and I can certainly go faster than you (stronger than you).
Fury:
I (well all of us agreed on that) think that it seems a little too restrictive. The whole system revolves around multiple activities..IE..you can make more than one spell in a season, invest more powers etc..It falls apart when you OPEN an item though...
As for Lesser enchanted items...Well I suppose that would work in some instances, but lets say we expand that to an item with five pawns...
To fill that in one season requires a lab total of 100....
...Not completely impossible in this case, but....eventually you reach a point where you are open items (multiple) that you can't 'one season'
To open any device the number of pawns one use is not a function of your lab total but of your MT 2 (or for Verditii with Elder Runes MTPhil). One certainly wouldn't need a lab total of 100 to open a device with 5 pawns of vis.
As for the truck analogy, I think you conveniently changed the elements of the argument to justify your desired reading of the process.
Whether your "vehicle" can hold one book or a thousand you still both have to travel the same distance to get it to where its going. The bigger capacity of the truck merely enables you to get more books to the final destination (i.e. more pawns of vis instilled).
"Opening an item" to my mind is a process of altering and attuning its natural properties to serve as a magical instrument and this is a complex proposition that takes time for all magi.
Consider too that your objection is naturally based on a modern concept of productivity thanks to our enjoyment of mass production. In the MP the priority was on the craftsmanship itself which demanded much longer time investment to produce the given "masterpiece". A true pardigmatic correspondence to mas sproduction would require you to set up a magic workshop of sorts and perhaps get lots of apprentices or forge companions to copy a particular item.
Thats how I would rule it (even if I, like you, wanted a McEnchanted Devices production capacity).
I was inclined to agree with Fury on the: "if you can use 18 (MT of 9)pawns/season, you can open 18 pawns worth of stuff, no matter how many individual items."
But then, let's talk common use/sense. If you are using infested items (in stead of one-shot of enchanted, which don't have to be Vim-charged/opened) you are aiming at at least 2 spells that have something to do with each other. You will get at least 4 pawns of combined spells. So I don't really see the problem (except for item-powerplayed Verditius) if you follow normal usage. Houseruling these options will lead to abuse if you ask me.
I don't have a desired destination. I am pointing out a hole in the system. It doesn't make much sense.
The point is that when you get good enough at something (it really doesn't matter what), you get faster at it. A perfect example of this is spell mastery. When you get good enough at a spell, you can 'fast cast it'. By your Mcspell casting idea, then you shouldn't be able to do that, because skill is irrelevant when performing a task.
I agree about the your Opening thoughts...but my 'modern concept' has nothing to do with it.
A very skilled blacksmith making knives: He could make a wonderful blade with wonderful designs and great strength. He could also make serviceable blades...and make a lot of them in a hurry. Simple blades are far below his skill, he has made 'many' of them and as he did so, he got much faster...
Sure I could get an apprentice to do this..but thats not the discussion...
Quite true...but if you were trying to create a lesser enchanted item that fills 5 pawns worth (level 50 spell) then you would...
Of course making it a lesser enchanted item also voids the ability to put Elder Runes into the item...
It sometimes does matter what:
Growing crops still takes an entire season no matter how good you are at it.
Being a better soccer player doesn't make the game go any faster.
Playing Barber's adagio for strings generally takes more time the better that you get at it.
That is a generalization which is not true for all tasks.
Very true.
But might I add that the flaw in Urien's logic doesn't necessarily make his conclusion false.
I invite you to consider this saying (by Chuang Tzu):
Urien:
What you could do is try your house rule. The first time it leads to abuse, the troupe/SG disallow it. Think about game balance.
It's a simple way to try out house rule: just use your own common sense.
It works for us, I hope it does for your troupe. =)
Our troupe work with the RAW on this and it work fine. Our Verditius don't like it, but maybe changing it would make his power unbalancing.
Ah, but where does your skill come it?
Sure it takes X long for a plant to mature, but there are certain things that can happen to slow this process down or speed it up. If you know what you are doing, you plant at the right TIME, you add the right amount of 'materials', the correct amount of water..it WILL grow faster. You may not be able to grow corn in a week, but you certainly can help things along, (compared to someone who doesn't know what they are doing).
Well, it like this... I'm not griping so much as pointing out that it doesn't seem to follow the standard rules ideas of the game..ie multiple activities. In the long run it matters not to me...one season won't break me.
I have thrown it around a bit and see a couple of things...
With the age of my character, I don't see a lot of items being made. I've been to dang busy...I've made perhaps five items for covenant and maybe five items for others (sodales). I'm working on my second Talisman (No Erik I haven't forgotten), and have made maybe four other items for myself. Of those four items, three of them are greater devices. I also have two items made by my Gauntleted apprentices...
So less than twenty items is like fifty or sixty years....
Not sure if thats a LOT, or not.
Obviously, thats a measure of OUR game. Other peoples games might have produced more items due to more orders...
This would obviously change if One season, open one item were changed...
Assuming that a change were to be made, it could be done as follows (maybe some combination):
--Magic Theory (maybe times two) number of pawns can be invested in any number of items. This would be a generic rule change.
-- Some sort of Mystery. This mystery could be either a Minor or Major. It would then add the benefit of the above idea...
Does the lack of inclusion of this rule help..eh it might. Would it hurt...maybe. Does it really matter...No.
I understand Eriks consternation with the idea (with apologizes to Erik for any offense here). Erik pretty much has made it clear that he dislikes most of the item creation rules. I don't really blame him, because I can see why... A bunch of the rules can be game breakers...
When making spells you can do multiple if they are the same tech/form just limited by your lab total. I agree that using the same concept for opening items could be over powering. To allow the same idea with items you definatly need a limit on how many you can do. I'd probally say they have to be the same tech/form and the total number possible is limited by magniitudes of Magic theory(round up)
or they have to be the same tech/form and the total number of pawns you can use in a season is divided by number of items. eg. if you can use 15 pawns and want to open 3 items you can only use 5 pawns total in the season.
Since the second idea falls apart with elder runes I may also say they can only be used when doing single items in a season.
What I told you is that being able to handle greater quantities of vis may have more to do with being able to channel a lot of power than with actual skill. You see the process as unidimensionnal, I see it as possibly 2-dimensionnal. This does not mean that either of us is right, I was just trying to provide you with an analogy to explain why the rules would work that way.
Wrong exemple, in that designs aren't part of the forge process itself.
There comes a point when a basic sword will take similar amounts of time to make. A master blacksmith will maybe do a better sword than a normal blacksmith in the same amount of time, but not so much, and certainly won't do 2 or more basic swords while a more common blacksmith makes one. He'll do more than an apprentice, because the apprentice will botch a lot
And, to take my old exemple, if I make a lot of musculation (increase my MT), I'll maybe be able to transport more books (invest more pawns) on my way to the library, but transporting one single book (investing one single pawn) to it will still take me the same time, no matter my lifting power.
I have the impression that you're maybe more seeking approval for a house rule than anything else. Don't bother with this! If you wanna try it, then try it! This is your game and your vision of the game, not mine or anyone else!
