Endangering the Order?

The covenant is currently located on Church land, and the feudal owners have a monastery as their liege. As far as the monastery is concerned, the magi are guests of the feudal lord of the castle. However, due to a incident that happened two years ago game time, the abbot knows that the magi are members of the Order of Hermes and that we have powerful magic. The abbot is somewhat friendly to us, since we saved him from an assassination attempt (which the assassins were trying to blame our covenant for) but he is still not completely convinced that the Order are more friend than foe.

Recently, the Bonisagus of the group was given a set of figurines. Given what was said, and the prophetic dream my Verditius had, it is clear that this is what is causing the aura of our covenant to rise from 5 to 6. From the dream I got, I am pretty certain that if something is not done, the residents who don’t have a Magic Virtue are going to slowly warp and gain the Disfigured (Look like caveman) Flaw. My character considers this a very bad thing. This is mostly because he is a softy and doesn’t want to do that to all the mundane people at the covenant. His other concern, however, is that the church may well be unhappy that one of their holdings is now a place that disfigures people and blame the order.

Now, I have already floated the idea that the Bonisagus would study the figurines someplace else, (I expect many covenant would be glad to host a Bonisagus whose study increased their aura) but she has refused to consider studying any place other than her lab.

So, would you consider this action, which if something is not done, almost everyone in the covenant will start to look like cave men, as endangering the order? Or am I attempting to deprive her of her magical power by trying to get her to study the figurines someplace else?

IF and only if the warping causes the Church to act and "bring ruin" on the other magi of the covenant will you be able to press that claim forward. If they only slightly incovenience youu, not much to press for. However, it can be argued that if you have to move, for example, he might be charged with depriving you of your magical resources.

But in the 3end I would say this is most likely to end up being a covenant issue, not something to march the guy for. Just vote to have him do research somewhere else. Or vote for the figures to be moved, and if he wants to study them he will have to move with them. You can easily do that under most covenant charters I have seen :slight_smile:


As it stands this is, as Xavi says, mainly an internal covenant issue, to be resolved with all cases put forward by the council. If the covenant is unable to resolve it or doesn't have the charter framework to allow for a resolution there is always Certamen or Wizards War. Remember with the latter you don't have to kill her, but depriving her of magical power (i.e. stealing the figurines and hiding them someplace else) is perfectly allowed during Wizards War. Of course if your covenant charter doesn't have provision to stop members warring amongst themselves then the first order of business is probably to revisit your covenant charter.

It could turn into an 'endangering the Order' issue, but a few things would have to happen first.

For example: Fredrick II has some prophetic vision or otherwise learns that people who look like neanderthals are in fact being turned into demons. On his travels he comes across the covenant with its neanderthal-population. The monks of the monastery wail and cry to him, saying 'The Order of Hermes did it! They are all evil!' Fredrick then declares it open season on all magi, even calling for Crusade to drive the Order from Europe.

Thats endangering the Order. However, an incident like that could easily be thwarted or headed off with a story. Even if the events do come to pass there could well be a make-it-right-again story as the local Guernicus magus says to the covenant 'you have three months to make this better or we send in the hoplites.'

Of course if the Bonisagus magus in question is an NPC and turns out to actually be a diabolist the story could get much more interesting.

I also think that covenant vote or certamen are the ways to force the issue.
Is there any possibility of a technical fix that will confine the increased aura to the labs - hermetic architecture, enchanting the building with a rego vim containment effect, building strategically placed chapels for the covenfolk?

You guys all play in games different than mine. My guys would kill the abbot or figure out some way to get rid of him and install some schmuck as the head of the abbey. Yeah, I know, interfering with the mundanes: but only if you get caught. Or maybe a new "priest" joins the abbey and then the abbey "mysteriously" burns down. Something like that.

Maybe I didn't make the situation clear. The covenant is on grounds owned by the monastery. The tame nobles have as their direct feudal lords the monastery. The covenant sends the monastery taxes and is one of their more profitable vassals. The monastery sends monks every fall to check our harvest and audit the taxes we are paying. Having everyone who live there turn into cavemen, (except the magi with the gift and those that have magical virtues) is going to piss them off.

Two years ago, game time, when some of the magi revealed themselves to the abbot as members of the Order of Hermes he asked his hierarchy if people in the Order were OK or not. He got a message back that the order was mostly OK as far as they knew. If we mutate our grogs into cavemen, what are they going to say that the next time someone asks that question? Wouldn’t having the Roman Catholic Church decide that The Order of Hermes are dangerous evil wizards be a danger to the order? How is being negligent about averting that not endangering the order?

The idea that someone must suffer damage before it could be counted as endangering the order seems strange to me. Suppose that a covenant had it its charter that the members were prohibited from endangering the covenant. Suppose a wizard wanted to master “The Call to Slumber” and went around casting it on all the sentries who were on watch. If no one attacks, did he endanger the covenant or not? I think he did, and that the other members of the covenant can tell him to knock it off before someone attacks while the sentries are sleeping.

If you absolutely cannot prevent the covenfolk warping , The Church (page 16) allows for a Pilgrimage to remove Flaws.
Sending ALL your covenfolk will be costly , as will the cost of hiring Labourers to replace them ,
who also face the possibility of warping.

Don't forget , absolutely everything in the covenant will warp , including plants , animals and all unprotected fixtures and fittings.

The Magi , could end up having to undertake a Pilgrimage as Penance.
As this would be a minimum of one season (iirc) , then it could be argued that all of you would be deprived of magical power.

Confine the spreading aura of magic ReVi gen
R: touch, D: ring, T, circle
If there is a focal source from which a magic aura is emanating then casting this spell around it will confine that aura to the circle provided that at all points on the circumference the aura level is less than or equal to magnitude -2. Magi should note that auras so confined have been known to build over time leading to sudden failure of the spell with hilarious results - regular harvesting of vis sometimes helps.
Faerie or infernal versions of this spell can be invented with the magnitude limited to the inventor's relevant realm lore score.


2 notes:
1 boundary target
2 which guideline?

The Order of Hermes, and most covenants within it, are democratic in nature and in the enforcement of laws. Something like this violates a covenant charter is the majority of voting members says it does. An action violates the Code of Hermes is the majority of voting magi at a Tribunal says it does.

Basically, as I see it, your options are these: Call a vote by the covenant's ruling council, moving that the items must be removed from the covenant as the represent a danger to the Order. If the vote goes against you, bring the case before the Tribunal. If that vote goes against you, bring the case before the Grand Tribunal. Yes, by the time it makes it to the Grand Tribunal the local abbot might already be petitioning for a crusade against the Order ... but that would only serve to strengthen your case.

page 99 , TMRE:

page 100:

no, circle target - this is for confining the extra aura in a small area such as one big room

Made up by guesswork :smiley:
The guideline Ravenscroft quoted suggests it should be easier than my estimate. I purposely made it difficult so that putting the fix in place would still generate story, especially if the Bonisagus can't cast an eighth mag ReVi without help.

The MuVi or ReVi options for containing the aura are all well and good, but they do require someone initiated in the Mystery of Hermetic Architecture or a Breakthrough.

You do have some time: it will take 5 years for the warping from the aura to affect most grogs (and if one or two warp earlier, this will be easier to hide). Convening the covenant's council and asking for a ruling seems the best solution. Certamen or Wizard War can force the issue.

Another option would be move the grogs outside of the aura, if it is not too big. I know it is a major undertaking, since if I understand right the covenant is in fact a castle. But if the aura is not too large, perhaps building an extension to the castle outside it, or even a new castle after much of the previous one is mysteriously destroyed in a fire, could work.

If one magus on a selfish bent is dictating the fate of the covenant in the face of some fairly decent arguments to the contrary by the other magi then they're being a jerk. The bulk of the Code is designed specifically to stop wizards being jerks except under controlled circumstances. There are many options in place to curb such behavior.

The other question I have here: is this a story arc of exciting-ness that the group are finding a solution to, or is this a player running roughshod over the covenant structure and being immune to repurcussions (e.g. expulsion) because they're a player? If its the latter, the player needs to realise that actions have consequences and this -could- result in their magus being kicked out of the covenant.

That's not to say that isn't a good story in its own right, but if it isn't a story the players+SG want to tell then some quiet OOC words with the player may be in order.

We had learned that the aura had risen at the end of the game session. There was some limited discussion of what was to be done. Technically, we were told that our characters won’t realize this until the winter solstice. At which time the covenant would presumably discuss this formally. I am asking whether this is endangering the order less because my character would bring charges up against her and more so I could argue why she should not just let our aura go up to six.

I would go for the lesser charge of "interfering with the affairs of mundane and thereby bring ruin to my sodales": if the Church decides to get angry over the warping, it's your covenant that will suffer, and they may well stop at that. Endangering the Order implies a large scale attack by the Church on the Order, not one covenant razed to the ground...

On the other hand, pissing off the Church is widely recognized by the Order as a very bad idea. AM5, p.15, states : "Tribunals tend to treat interfering with the Church as a very serious crime". Those grogs of yours are legally under the protection of the Church, even if only indirectly. So you can also present as an argument that if a third party were to bring the situation to the attention of the Tribunal, the Tribunal may well decide to rule against the entire Covenant just to be on the safe side.

So it's not so much Endangering the Order as giving anyone in the Tribunal with a grudge against the covenant or an interest in its fall all the ammunition they need to press charges which may well stick, regardless of the reality behind them. Too many magi would vote against the covenant 'just to be on the safe side'.