I think my interpretation would be that any teram object on the sword entirely encompassed by the circle would be protected(for example a gem on the hilt where the circle is the setting), but the rest of the sword would be destroyed as normal. I think circle spells not effecting things outside their effect area is pretty core to their place in the game.
There is at least one important category of circle spells that very clearly can affect things outside the circle, namely wards with the Circle target.
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I suppose, I always thought of it as they are prevented from interacting with the interior of the circle, which I think can be thought of as an effect on the inside of the circle, and the non-hermetic origin detailed in hoh:s somewhat covers some of the attendant weirdness.
The point is that it is clear that the incoming spell is trying to violate the boundary of the circle, affecting what is unambiguously inside. And then would fall under the logic (all at once as the spell was incoming) of being "any suitable magic affecting that person, not just one spell" since Vim can affect "either an individual spell, object, or person" according to the Base Individual.
To phrase it another, perhaps clearer way, we can define the Target of the spell, viewing it as strict as we are able to for sake of argument, as the elements of the sword that are inside the Circle and not any of that which is outside of the Circle. However this still results in the incoming spell immediately attempting to affect the part that is unquestionably the Target. (Theoretically you could try to avoid doing that with a Target Part effect, but that would be a very unusual/specific design.) Therefore either way (whether we say the Circle affects the whole sword or only what is inside the Circle on the sword) it counts as "any suitable magic affecting that person" [Target] and should be dispelled if the PeVi effect is strong enough.
I suppose you're probably right that you can support this scheme with a specific reading of the RAW, but for whatever it's worth I would probably not let it fly at my table, I don't think the repercussions are worth it. I don't think it's particularly good for the game that you can defend an entire manor house with a one inch diameter ring circle ward.
It is interesting to consider ramifications. And I prefer things to stay logically consistent. Not to make exceptions or special cases if I can avoid it.
Arguably it would expand in principle to something like that (a Structure Target spell) if it were the right sort of Circle, in theory. But it wouldn't do anything to stop say a repeated barrage of Pilum of Fire from blasting the place down even if it were a PeVi for dispelling Ignem, unless the Pilum itself was going to strike in the Circle or something in it etc.
It is more specifically the interaction of the Vim individual with large Targets that include the vim effect.
Another example for a thought exercise.
If you have a Personal Perdo Vim for dispelling Scrying spells up on yourself, and you fall within the scope of a given scrying spell (it perceives you via scrying), arguably it should be dispelled?
It doesn't matter really that you aren't an explicit target of the scrying, you are being affected by the applicable/declared type of magic as the target of the dispelling effect.
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I think this does all depend somewhat on the assumption that a spell as a cohesive but fragile object; if we think about a pehe wood destruction ward, what happens if we poke a broomhandle into it? My expectation would be that only the part that entered the ward would be destroyed, you could just as easily apply this to the previous dispelling ward if you wanted to, yielding the thing I described in the sword destruction example
This interpretation does have a kind of weird interaction with intelligo sense magic though, perhaps leaving the caster blind(or whatever is applicable) wrt the spell effect in the parts theyve sensed the ward-haver.
I think I would tend to regard a "partial dispel" to require a Target Part dispel effect and/or an extra magnitude devoted to affecting only a Part. Generally I think that establishes that for hermetic magic affecting a whole thing is easier and the default, and affecting Part of a thing is more difficult. But it is worth thinking about.
Circle target perdo spells already do this:
I cast a small pean circle spell on my belt, does this give me a new hole for my belt doohickey or destroy it?
A clever wizard wants seabed access from his newly created island of magicians, he has a deficiency in rego so he draws a peaq circle around the exit of his tunnel, does this destroy the ocean immediately or over the course of many centuries?
Similarly, an Iberian maga moves to Stonehenge, and wishes to keep her courtyard dry, does this destroy all storms that come nearby?
I'm skipping corpus because it's kind of gruesome
A young laborer is taking leaves into a hole a maga drew a pehe ward around and accidentally gets a little too enthusiastic about it and shoves half of their rake across the line, does it dissintigrate in their hands or do they just have a rather shorter stick?
A quick thinking maga caught in a 12acre forest fire draws a peig ward around herself and her companions! Does this destroy the entire thing or only that covered by the circle?
A somewhat eccentric maga draws a short rectangular peim ward at hip height across a floor length window looking in on a ball, does this render all the attendees invisible through it?
Mentem is a bit weird because it doesn't usually occupy space like other forms do, I'm skipping it for now
A careless flambeau accidentally drops their second favorite arsenic coated flint spike for slinging near the Pete waste bucket while inspecting the coal mine, it bounces off the rim nearly, is the whole thing destroyed or only the half that crossed the rim?
One could argue, I think, that having any part of a spell contacting a pevi ward destroy the whole thing violates the normal functioning of perdo wards as established by basically all of the other forms
So, the question here seems to be: what happens if only part of an object is within a T:Circle spell (that would affect the whole object if it were entirely within the Circle)?
There are roughly three possible answers:
- The entire object is affected.
- (Only) the portion of the object within the Circle is affected.
- The entire object is unaffected.
I strongly believe that 3 is the sensible and "official" answer. Yes, it weakens protection via Perdo Vim cast on an area, in that spells "larger" than that area are completely unaffected (so they will affect stuff within the area). But that's a feature, not a bug: "true" warding should be Rego, not Perdo.
Now, exactly where a teleportation spell is, and thus exactly how Impede the Impertinent Interloper should work (it's not 100% clear from the text) is admittedly a fuzzy area. I tend to think that a spell affecting a Target is co-located with the Target, which makes things easy to adjudicate. That would mean that Impede the Impertinent Interloper should not work as described, however.
Do we have a canon answer, and if so where?
I seem to recall it was discussed at length in one of David Chart's clarification threads, but I admittedly cannot find it. However, the reasoning is as follows.
You want to avoid 2, because it creates a lot of ambiguity for stuff like Mentem, and problems with T:Part. You also want to avoid 1, because people should huddle well within a Circular Ward, not strive to keep one toe within the ward while they extend the rest of their body out (benefiting from the Ward on their whole body thanks to the single toe inside it). This only leaves 3 as a viable solution.
Put in simpler words: something is "within" a Container if it is entirely within the Container.
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I think I would ask this question: If there is a circular ward protecting you from demons and you put one foot inside while fighting a demon, should you be generally protected from the demon or not? Is the demon really acting across the circle to attack you?
Generally, based on what I read on circular wards and other Targets, I would say a circle counts as being within the circle and things somewhat inside and somewhat outside do not count as being inside the circle.
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If part of an object is inside the circle, and part of it outside, does that count as breaking the circle?
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We don't have a lot of explicit guidance as to what does or doesn't constitute breaking a circle, that I recall.
If you draw a circle on a surface, that surface is always inside and outside the circle, so it can't break the circle if circle spells work at all
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Does the surface in question really count as being inside the circle at all?
The parts of it outside the circle certainly aren't affected by a circle spell anyhow. (Otherwise circles drawn on the ground would become very strange.)
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Doesn't a ward against demons prevent demons from interrupting the surface to destroy the circle? I don't have a ref for this I feel like I read it somewhere though. Anyway that would indicate the surface is effected
Anyway, a few circle spells that are effective against large objects outside them:
WARD AGAINST WATER ReAq 20 R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle No water may enter or leave the protected circle. Characters who are wearing wet clothing or perspiring are slowed when entering or leaving a protected area as the excess liquid is stripped from their bodies and possessions. Hermanus cast this ward using forceless casting (Houses of Hermes: True Lineages page 72), so the ward surrounding his laboratory complex has a Penetration of zero, allowing liquids carried by magi and creatures with Magic Resistance to pass through unimpeded. (Base 5, +1 Touch, +2 Ring) Source: Legends of Hermes, 108
WARD AGAINST THE SIROCCO ReAu 25 R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle Wards against sandstorms by repelling the breezes that carry dust. It is powerful enough to defend Alexander and his servants from the most powerful sandstorms. (Base 10, +1 Touch, +2 Ring) Source: Magi of Hermes, 12
A TIME FOR SLUMBER PeIg 5 R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle When this spell is cast around a camp, it dims the blinding light of the desert sun. This allows grogs and animals to sleep more easily. Alexander uses it in conjunction with A Place of Recuperation when on expedition. (Base 2, +1 Touch, +2 Ring) Source: Magi of Hermes, 14
WARD AGAINST FLAME ReIg 15 R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle This spell creates a circle that mundane fires cannot cross. It is used, in many laboratories, around heat sources that could tip or spill. It is also popular around grain stores. The fine dust that is found wherever people store flour is highly flammable, and many magi use this spell to quarantine areas in mills and granaries from the fires that are used in other parts of the buildings. Hermetic librarians use this spell far more than is necessary: in one covenant, for example, the drip catcher on every candleholder has a circle for this spell etched into its surface. This spell sometimes encloses an entire laboratory, but is of limited usefulness in that application. The fires caused by laboratory accidents are often magically powerful enough to overcome this ward, or hot enough to burn through the wooden boards used as floors and ceilings in many covenants. The spell does keep fires bottled, but this makes them more intense, until they burn through their supply of fuel and air. (Base 4, +1 Touch, +2 Ring) Source: Covenants, 104
WARD AGAINST MUNDANE INTRUSIONS ReIg(An, Aq, Co, He) 50 R: Touch, D: Ring, T: Circle, Ritual Req: Animal, Aquam, Corpus, Herbam This spell conglomerates other wards into a single working. It holds at bay many of the things likely to damage Hermetic sancta: flame, excessive light, thieves, pests, moisture, and mildew. (As Ward Against Curious Scullion, +4 requisites) Source: Covenants, 104
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First of all, Circular Rego Wards (and all but one of your example spells are Circular Rego Wards) work according to their own rules, that do not extend to other types of spells; in particular, they can affect stuff completely outside the Circle, preventing it from acting across or on the Circle, even indirectly and at a distance. For example, a Circular Ward against men can prevent a man 10 paces away from the circle from tossing a stone to break the circle.
As for the Perdo Ignem spell that dims the light within the Circle, it's not entirely clear whether sunlight within a Circle (or other Container) is Part of a larger Individual (all light produced by the sun). If it's not, the spell is not "effective against large objects outside them".
Personally, I think that sunlight should be one big Individual, so that one should be able to affect it only with T:Part, but that would have created a lot of problems with legacy spells such as Wizard Eclipse; so ... I think it's fine as it is.
As for breaking a circle, we know canonically you can cover a circle with a sheet of vellum without breaking the circle.
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