Eve ex Verditius

Yeah, but I just can add a rego req. My Creo and Rego are the same so its not much of a problem.

Or I could open an even more massive pit of earth. Since Eve can fly she would be pretty well safe, even if her foes fall to their doom.

So I think the flaw set up I will use is:
Weak Spontaneous Magic, Driven (acquire godhood, major), Small Frame, Optimism (minor), Warped magic, Incompatible Arts (Perdo Mentum/Terram)

Also views on the various houses:
Mystery Cults: Pretty cool, Eve is big on the mysteries. Her Philo of Rome is better though. They certainly don't have the best way to anything good. Still when Eve ascends she is sure they will see the Truth, mostly. Maybe they can integrate their mysteries.
Verdi: The Verdi are particularly frustrating with their mystery path that doesn't actually seem to lead to any sort of immortality. If you delve into the mysteries of the world, shouldn't you try and NOT die? Buts a damper on most everything. Plus she is sort of stuck with them. Their whole idea on "masterpieces" sort of bugs her. Her idea of a masterpiece is functional. Resource efficient. She doesn't really want to ditch them and take their mysteries. They wouldn't like that.
Boni: These guys are cool. They make progress! Pity she can't join...
Tremere: Woo! Pragmatism. Trying to make the world better. Eve can get behind that. I mean, godhood only works if we all help each other. Otherwise we'll end up like all the other screw ups. Huzzah for communal effort! Now if only they weren't so bad at it...
The other two TL's: I guess they perform essential functions to keep the Order running... Eve is sure glad she didn't get saddled with those tasks. I mean sure, most growth ends up bumping into limits that need overcoming, but random conflicts don't lead to growth.
Tytalus: Growth through conflict? I get my growth through wine, women, men and song. Also study, and exercise. Its much nicer. And more effective.
Ex Misc: Don't really want to join all the Hedgie rejects. Okay they have some cool tricks, but shouldn't they be trying to integrate them into the Order?
Jerbiton: Beauty is nice. Okay there are some slight religious differences, and they are a bit snobbish.
Flambeau: Cooperation! Not fighting! Fighting gets people killed. You want to avoid it, not seek it!

I'm also gonna rewrite the Eve Theology...

That's a much more cohesive set of flaws. Adding in her philosophies is also helpful in seeing what makes her tick.

Eve's theology has been changed. I've removed the elements making it Divine.

  1. The world was created by the impure demiurge, not really evil, but certainly not anything worthy of neither honor nor worship. Ennoia would be source of Light and goodness and all that. The other realms are ultimately distortions of that.
  2. The world is filled with evil and imperfections being made by the demiurge. One of the things you can do to rectify this is form good out of it anyway. The demiurge is of course, imperfect and ultimately an emanation of Ennoia, so its more than possible to find good in the world.
    2a) This means you should enjoy life. Things that the corrupt Church would call debauchery, gluttony and lust. Still don't over indulge. Destroying your body and succumbing to the temptations of alcoholism or overeating is another failure. Feast, but don't eat yourself to death. Feel the ecstasy provided by exercise. But also do good deeds. And don't hurt other people in your indulgence. Be good to yourself and your neighbor. We all need to work together to reach enlightenment.
  3. The secret knowledge of the Gnostic cult will help you reach "heaven" after death, but so will good deeds and more general enlightenment. And of course, the desired "heaven" is more of a purification and expansion of your soul and nothing like what the corrupt Church preaches. Their heaven is simply a trick to lure souls away from enlightenment.
  4. One of the great expansions of the soul is what Eve calls Apotheosis. It isn't the end of the road, but even seeing the next step requires even more enlightenment than one could hope to achieve on the mortal coil.
  5. This part is more or less purely linguistic and leads to a lot of confusion. Ennoia is not a god. It would be insulting to compare her to a god. Ennonia doesn't really need worship either. You can if you want, it won't harm anything. Instead worship the best parts of each other.
  6. The Divine, is simply a god that has gotten a lot of power recently, and is outright hostile to other powers. When the whole known world worships you that tends to happen.

As I mentioned earlier this loses the Divine elements. The Divine is hard to wrap your head around. Its still a reasonably virtuous group.

Heterodox, indeed. :smiley:

I've continued the clean up of my first post. It will be good to get it to the wiki. I have a description of my casting tools though! Also changed Tommy's Gone to have a rego requisite.

Basically these restrictions were all put in because that is the way the spell was created. You are trying to argue that my spell is a different spell and that different spell is overpowered. Sorry that's a strawman.

The casting is rolled once with this. More rolls means higher max penetration. More chance of an explosion.

You're saying this use of group is unbalanced because it makes multi-cast suck. Multi-casting isn't the best way to get everything done. Just like a group target isn't the best way to get a lot of gold. Or creo ig isn't the best way to make a pretty picture. So yeah, one advantage that multi-cast has over this is an extra ten penetration.

Its one single spell. If someone fast casts a defense to this they need to do it once. If someone fast casts a defense to multi-cast spell they also need multi-cast or they need to make several fast casting rolls. Or if they have a waiting spell or similar to stop this.

And I'm saying there are a ton of situations where its worse.

Finally, I don't think that spell mastery is a good yardstick for "balanced" especially after the huge nerf it took. Spell mastery is good in some situations, really good, but its not some general thing that is always or even often the best solution.

You still haven't described the mechanic that allows this to target multiple people.

You're really confused on what I'm saying. The Target of the spell is a Group of Terram. There is no mechanic that allows you to throw 10 items and hit individual people. You could throw all 10 items at the same person. You can affect everything in an area with Area of Effect spells. This is doing something altogether different. Find a canonical spell that does something close to what you're trying to do. I'm not familiar with one.
There are better area of effect spells within your casting capabilities. This one is flawed.
For the record, you've described one circumstance where this is worse than multiple casting, that really doesn't constitute a ton.

Control the Dead Turb (Hermetic Projects 116) is similar. It creates a group, and if we note how combat rules work, wounds are inflicted as evenly as possible across the group. So if the dead Turb group of 5 people attacks 5 people they would hit each person once. You'll also note that they very specifically called out not acting as a "trained group", which would imply is an untrained group. On a side note they cannot be given different orders, so no attacking people on different sides of the room.

Similar for this spell. The metal rods are flung at a target of group. The main difference is instead of hitting people with flesh and bone, I'm using metal.

Any circumstance where you want to focus on one person? Any circumstance where you want to focus on people on different sides of the room? Any circumstance where you want penetration? etc.

That's an apples and oranges comparison. And even then it says explicitly that they can't fight as a trained group. So the individuals would attack whomever is closest. A trained group could defend against them, though.
Try again. A direct damage spell that damages individuals in a group when the targeting spell is comprised of 10 independent elements, such as yours.

No. Its a near exact comparison. Its controlling matter to deal damage indirectly.

Trained group. It refers to them as a group. Which leaves untrained group. Even if it doesn't the definition of an untrained group is people on the same side of comparable ability, which these would be. Untrained groups work in the same manner when it comes to determining who gets hit. Scatter damage among the opposing group.

So a Group version of Pilum of Fire does what?

Ahah ! Magi of Hermes, p.111, Stockade of Fire. Creo Ignem, Group target, creates six walls of fire that can be placed individually within the spell range and, if placed across someone's location, using the rules for aimed spells, will cause damage to that person.

I think the need for aiming derives from the fact its a spell to create walls. For example, if you wanted to catch someone with a wall of thorns spell you would need to aim. Otherwise that sets precedent for what I want. The individuals created by the spell being independent.

Halancar, I'll grant you it canonical. I've noticed that there are problems with several spells from Magi of Hermes. At least the author considered the walls needed to be aimed. -1 per wall after the first, I guess? In the case of Rommy's Gone, the last spear has a -9 to hit.
Lamech, Wall of Thorns says absolutely nothing about aiming it to put it at the desired location, nor do any of the wall spells with T:Ind

If you want to drop wall of thorns directly on top of someone? Yeah, you need to aim it. That would trap a target with magic resistance. Similarly to how pit of gaping earth needs to be aimed to get someone to drop into it. And precise placement always requires finesse.

And the -1 per wall after the first is pure fantasy on your part.

Do you have to aim Pilum of Fire, Ball of Abysmal Flame, Incantation of Lightning, Mighty Torrent of Water?
Magic Resistance is a strawman here. See the insert in Houses of Hermes about page 30. It describes several spells that can prevent a magus from moving even with Magic Resistance, The Magus wouldn't be damaged by th thorns, but he could be trapped. Wall of Thorns isn't listed, but Weaver's Trap of Webs and several others, including some CrHe spells.

No. Although if you wanted some precise effect, say a perfectly circular burn, you would need a finesse roll.

Pretty sure its not a complete list. For example the Great Rot could pretty clearly catch someone in a collapsing house. Soo... not sure what your point is.

Hitting different people in a given area isn't a precise effect?

This isn't a "given area". Its grouped people. No picking out ten random people from a crowd. Its pretty standard for group spells. You don't need anything special for that. Each target of a spell always strikes the victim, just like several other spells. Skewering them all through the foot, sure that would be precise. Just hitting someone? No. Look we have a rego corpus spell that hits individuals of a group with no AoE. We have a wall of fire spell that creates 6 walls with no additional need for finesse above what other wall spells would require.