Exploitations of and Limitations on Holy Magic

Games Discussion Ars Magica
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So, I have a holy magus of the method of purity. One of the big restrictions of holy magic is that you can't use hermetic voicing and gestures so if you didn't build your virtues for it (which I didn't) you're at -15 for spellcasting. The two ways around this are to make a 15+ theology roll, which is hard, or use the action associated with your method. In purity's case, that's doing something strenuous enough to cause a level of long term fatigue or a light wound.

And so, I cast a modified Endurance of the Berserkers (not affected by wound penalties), and modified Bind Wound (no risk of worsening wounds), then stab myself every time I cast a spell. At the end of the day, cast a spell using the guideline from Soceitas pg 100 to reduce all my wounds by 1 stage which, because of the benefits of Holy Magic, costs only long term fatigue which I get to sleep off anyway.

All of that sound kosher? There any hidden interactions that I missing? It's a few steps, but I like knowing all those spells anyway so it seems like a fine cost to pay to juke that downside.

And speaking of Holy Magic's ability to dodge vis costs, the Creo Mentem and Creo Corpus guidelines to permanently raise stats seem...really strong. The +5 versions get a bit hard to learn, to be sure, a level 60 spell is gonna be out of my reach until raising my int with it isn't a huge gain, but the +3 ones are very doable and even the +0 ones to buy back stat points sold off at character creation all for free seems strong to my novice eyes. Since long term fatigue only takes a nights rest to work off, it's entirely feasible that I could just cast it right before bed and not even lose seasons to raise the entire covenant's stats to whatever level I can learn. Yes I have to learn a new spell for each stat, but that's...4-6 years of labwork to get what would be a lot of equivalent virtue points? Seems like a good rate.

Has anyone played with this and felt it was too strong, or if the costs of holy magic + time + warping balance it out? If it felt too strong, what are some sensible limitations to put on it?

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That feels more like Unknown Armies than Ars Magica :slight_smile:

I would not allow it in my games. The key idea of Purity is that you grow closer to God my mortifying flesh. The description is very abstract (suffer a long-term fatigue level or a light wound), but the key is that it's something that makes the character suffer. Using magic to reduce/remove that suffering, in my view, invalidates the action - imagine a flagellant taking pain-relief medication! For the same reason, "stabbing oneself for a light wound" (with magical antiseptic in the form of Bind Wounds) feels ... wrong as a form of mortification of the flesh.

My suggestion for using Purity is not to start from the mechanical result, and find a method of causing it. It's to start from a reasonably mythic form of mortification of the flesh in line with the character's beliefs, such as fasting, flagellation, sleep deprivation or ... whatever, and eyeball whether it's fair to assume it might cause the rough equivalent of a wound or loss of a long-term fatigue level. If so, great, you have a means to Purity, otherwise re-adjust.

Do keep in mind that even if you allow it to work, it does put your character in deep danger.
Until you've had a good night sleep, you are out of all those long-term fatigue levels. And before you heal your wounds, you are wounded, and it takes very little to break such a fragile setup.
Finally, keep in mind that it's not exactly healthy to keep damaging yourself this way; as a Storyguide I'd call for extra aging rolls if you did this too often.

And master it. You don't want to botch on a spell to raise your Intelligence :slight_smile:

It's fine. Magi can do a lot if they set their minds to (and spend their time on) it.
Raising the stats of grogs is not a huge advantage for the covenant.
Raising the stats of magi and companions is a bigger issue, but keep in mind that in general casting such powerful Rituals causes warping (unless on yourself or on someone for whom the Ritual is designed).

Finally, keep in mind that this stuff is seriously "transhuman". Would you, as a normal 21st century person, take some high-tech drugs that mess with your DNA to permanently boost your reflexes or your endurance? Mmmm. Maybe if you are seriously impaired in some area, or if you are really burning with ambition to win an Olympic gold medal or become an International Chess GrandMaster. I know I probably would not. I am absolutely certain I would not if it the offer came from some really shady individual with a reputation of dishonesty and treachery (i.e. the Gift, unless you're protected by Parma).

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I'm not up on Holy Magic but would there be any problems with using it to ritually enhance people who are not themselves holy or even, in the case of a fair number of magi and companions, not on the best of terms with the Church and it's teachings?

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In the case of a jewish or muslim holy magus, I doubt they would care much about what the Church thinks or teaches.

You can't use Holy Magic to sin. That is the main limit on what you can do with it.
Would enhancing people like you mention be a sin? In most cases, probably not, but that is a question for theologicians to argue.

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You know you can get the same effect by having a corpus spirit bound to yourself, as a minor virtue, without the study total halving from Holy Magic. Just pointing out that virtue has major drawbacks.

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Side issue perhaps - but to be frank, I wonder how much the virtue would need to be adapted for a muslim holy magi. The prohibition on the use of hermetic words and gestures, for example, are not as clear in islam as they are in judaism or christianity.

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start from a reasonably mythic form of mortification of the flesh in line with the character's beliefs , such as fasting, flagellation, sleep deprivation or ... whatever, and eyeball whether it's fair to assume it might cause the rough equivalent of a wound or loss of a long-term fatigue level

Well I've got that, I think. Sword which is his talisman, iron thorns molded into the hilt and guard so that whenever he draws it he bleeds. "There is a cost to me drawing my blade so I shall be reminded of it in blood," is the idea. I know I explained this mechanically but I promise I've been a good player, I started with the flavor ;~;

But you're probably right about the shock of pain/clarity thing. I think Bind Wound is less of a violation of that than Endurance, so maybe I have to take the penalty(s), at least for a while, for it to count?

Side question, but would that wound's penalty normally apply to the total you're generating by taking it?

Would you, as a normal 21st century person, take some high-tech drugs that mess with your DNA to permanently boost your reflexes or your endurance?

Well, yes, but I recognize I'm not exactly a representative sample. I do think that my character would want to push this, and I think the average magus is greedy/arrogant/power-hungry enough to risk it, at least for a relatively trusted covenant member. My character is also gentle gift + reputation for being trustworthy (and for being a weirdo holy mage, tbf), so I think it's a coin flip. Probably for the more Christian of the bunch it'd be acceptable, but the Jew in our party might be opposed. Good thing to think about, thank you.

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I'd just say that the "basic" penalty one takes for calling upon Purity (light wound or fatigue level) must be allowed to recover "naturally" (i.e. no medical or magical assistance), or one gets hit with a Tragedy of Hubris. So, if a character self-inflicts some serious flagellation that would burden him with multiple wounds, it's ok to clean and medicate and bind those, but the "end result" should be that the character is left with the equivalent of a light wound or a long-term fatigue level.

I'd say yes, it does, because ultimately it's the suffering that powers the whole mystical experience: no penalty, no purity!

I think that, while there would certainly be some exceptions (and it's certainly ok to roleplay such an exception, or even an entire covenant of exceptions) the average NPC - whether magus or mundane - would avoid it!

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Well, the prohibition seems to be rooted in the inclusion of pagan (i.e. implicitly idolatrous) elements While not an expert on medieval Islam, I would assume that's still a big no-no.

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So, RoP:D has a box "Proscriptions against magic" which includes pretty tough prohibitions for christians and jews, such as muttering incantations, or performing acts of sorcery. While there are prohibitions in Islam on magic, they're typically in the context that such magic was learned from devils (which in the context of the game can point towards maleficia not magic), and counter-balanced by other sections that seem to say that as long as magic isn't used to sin, and as long as you don't claim that your magic works despite god's will, you're fine. My understand is Bonisagus intentionally purged the pagan idolatrous elements from magic theory, so while they still are incantations which might be a deadly sin for a jew, and a sin for a christian, I'm not convinced they're seen as a sin at all for a muslim, as long as he acknowledges that allah allows him to perform magic... which is a very easy belief to have if you believe the gift is part of creation, not outside of it. And if someone believes his magic works because Allah wills it - why would he give them up? I think the mindset behind giving up words and gestures only works for 2 of the 3 major faiths.

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Anyone who focuses on a specific goal in AM, unless the SG actively puts barriers in their way, can get there. Some outcomes are really powerful, and that is not a bad thing, provided all players know the game dynamic in that group.

I see two AM balance factors. 1. Every character can have their niche. There are so many things that can be done, no-one can do them all. 2. It can be done. Should it be done? .

Your point about exploitation firmly sits in category 2.

Physical stats, I can see a lot of people buying in. Strength and Stamina, most without blinking. Dex and Quickness, there's a bit of mental process. but again, not enough to scare people.

Intelligence and Communication. Adjust that enough, are you still you?
A Int +5 person is likely going to be interested in very different things to an Int +0. You used to like Sudoku. Not any more, too simple.
Com+5 person picks up on all the subtle cue and digs that they used to miss, and no longer gets along with their friends.

I think very few people would be willing to go that far. Especially in a setting where God, and the immortal soul, is always present in one's thoughts.

If the covenant decides, they are fine with being magical (to quote Nietzsche) ubermensch, so be it. The end of the day, what have you done? You've given everyone in your covenant a +2 to +3 in some skills. It's really nice, but not game breaking. The stamina boost will gives your covenfolk longer life which is awesome. Once people are at skill level 5, and magic level 15+, getting those extra levels and +1s slow down, so it's nice, but if need be, the SG just buffs the threats a little.

Lastly, there are times when the SG steps in. If a new character is brought in with four +3 stats, and three -3 stats, then is "shocked" to discover the magi can remove those -3s, the SG says "Sorry, but on the way to the covenant, you got pneumonia. I made a check with your -3 stamina and you died." Try again and make a reasonable character.