We know that by extending one’s parma to another person you negate the negative aspects of the Gift. Can one do the same to an animal, specifically a horse so that someone Gifted can ride it?
We decided that one can (and a gentle Gifted magus will so that his blatantly Gifted apprentice can come along for a ride), but I’m curious to hear the forum’s take on it. Especially any arguments disagreeing.
Never considered it. I would allow it. A few months ago in my game we had several scenes where horses were altered with muto animal spells to make them amenable to gifted and blatently gifted riders.
I think (going from memory here) it was mentioned in True Lineages that Tremere would like to have mounts with their own Might, as extending Parma over them was unsatisfactory in the fact that it weakened the defense of the maga in question. While it is still a theory, that seems like reasonable in-game confirmation to me.
IIRC, you can only extend the parma to WILLING targets (serf's parma here). This could cause some problems with an animal as it isn't very easy to convince them to allow it.
Far easier then, to use ReAn to make the animal more amiable...
I think you are right, although willing could probably be stretched to include most animals relatively used to him, or even asleep, depending on the storyguide. And there would be the secondary benefit of Magic Resistance. Plus, exposure to such magics might even lead to the mount gaining a Might score of its own, in conjection with other exposures/experiments. That would actually be an interesting long term side project for a Saga, particularly with the animal lovers in the group.
Is this a correct premise to start with? I'm not familiar with anything that says a person protected by Parma becomes immune to the Gifts affects. Is this a Ars5 addition I've missed?
I don't think it's exclusively Ars5, but it's certainly there: p.76 "The Parma Magica blocks these effects of the Gift entirely. A maga with a Parma Magica is not affected by the Gifts of other magi[...]"
Can't find it spelled out as such in earlier editions, though it's been buzzing in the background for ages.
Anyway, it wouldn't help a non-gentle gifted magus ride a horse on his own - though he could keep the horse scared primarily of him and ignoring other gifted individuals.
Thanks for the quote. Since Ars5 much of my playing exp is theoretical.
Scratches my beard and considers the implications....
Hmmmm...
Why not? Isn't that part of what it does for apprentices?
That's what it sounds like in the Apprentice section of the corebook.
from page 76 ArM 05 :
from page 106 :
the bit on extending Parma Magica
As far as i can see , extending Parma Magica provides magic resistance only ,
unless you have The Gift , in which case it deadens the effect.
It prevents anyone protected by the parma from being affected by the anti-social effect of other people's gifts.
Example: An apprentice with a parma extended over him would not be automaticly distrustful of his master, nor of the maga that just came over for a visit.
I agree. And it does give some interesting scenes, when the apprentice wakes in the morning before the master, or returns from an errand, and the master's Parma doesnt cover her and she starts to (re-)feel the unease of the masters gift.
I am however a uncomfartable with the ideas of sharing the parma with a beast of burden - not the sharing in itself, but that it removes one of the real challenges of the Gift if a horse will accpet being ridden in this way. I would house rule it out by saing that an ordinary animal cannot accept the parma (the part of being a willing target)?
Seconded. The animal needs to have true Intelligence rather than Cunning, otherwise the effects of the Gift will be such that the animal, trained as it may be, will never trust the magus sufficiently.
Can you quote a page in the RAW for this.
I am not seeing that the protection of Parma in relation to the anti-social effect of The Gift works for anyone without the Gift.
Well - the quotes you cited above I read very differently. No where do I see that those require the protected to have the Gift to have the parma shield them from other magi's 'bad wibe". The Gift of which is spoken is to me the gift of others, that would other wise have had a negative social impression on the shielded person.
At this point i can't find a definitive answer in the RAW.
If the Social Effect of the Gift can be negated to the non-Gifted by the extension of Parma ,
it does devalue (for me)
having The Gentle Gift as a Major Virtue ,
and The Blatant Gift as a Major Flaw.
In the section on apprentices it specifically states that failing to extend your parma to protect your apprentice from the effects of the gift is a low crime.
The parma ritual does take some time and require a willing participant to enact. I can't imagine that blatent gift and gentle gift would appeal to peopletoo much more if parma did not protect people from the gift's effects.
This is not what i was trying to say.
My interpretation is that Parma blocks the effect of The Gift , for the Gifted.
That extending Parma to cover an animal or non-Gifted person does not block the effects of The Gift.
It provides Magic Resistance only.
Interesting - I never thought of the sharing the parma as something that took time. The rules say only that you have to touch the person in question, not that you have to redo the parma ritual, so this is what I've went with so far. But I can see the argument in favour of having to do the ritual over again - for flavour if nothing else.
True and very interesting, but I've found that his has its limitations. We have the rutine of having apprentices played as player characters, and the apprentices' daily rutines and chores often bring them roaming the covenant without their master with them - and I would expect this to be commonplace throughout the Order, but either that crime is seldom charged or the apprentice has to stay near the master and not run such errands!
I do not think it is in the RAW, and I see your reasons for thinking it devalues those Virtues/Flaws. I actually never thought of this as a loophole for magi to avoid the problems of the Gift, but now such a loophole has been discovered I can think of several ways to close it with house ruling.
A) to rule as you suggest, that only persons with the Gift is thusly 'numbed' to the Gift of others,
B) As Erik suggest, to rule that the Parma has to be redone - which takes time (and consent),
or
C) to rule that this shielding from the negativity of the Gift only does so against persons not protected by the same parma = so if you spread your parma to someone, then that someone would still be creeped out by your Gift.
D) In my troupe we have put a lot of emphasis on the 'numbing' of the parma; that the more powerfull it is the less colourfull the world seems and the less does food taste (as a consequence our food obsessed Flambeau lets down his parma during his frequent eating...) etc, and this is also what 'numbs' the sensation of someone elses Gift. In this light, being bestowed with the Parma and the world turning drab and somewhat grayish might freak a mundane more than the Gift itself.