Extradimensional Spaces

DI = Dies Irae, the very last book produced for 5th edition, so probably as far from "core" as an official 5th edition book can be. It's a set of stories that could utterly change or destroy the world. There's one where some Criamon make a Hermetic Breakthrough that allows them to affect "The Aether" and in doing so make apocalyptic changes to the world.

Of course, a Hermetic Breakthrough theoretically allows you to play with the Limits of Magic as far as your saga will allow, so creating brand new forms, making a discovery that proves your pet theory true or allowing you spells that most Hermetic magi couldn't begin to replicate are all standard fare for a Hermetic Breakthrough. Allowing spells that defy Euclidean geometry and mess around with the world around you is perfectly reasonable for a Hermetic breakthrough.

This may have been addressed already, but Hermetic Architecture allows for the expansion of an existing Regio (Enchantment of the Magnified Regio, The Mysteries, Page 100). Why would it be a breakthrough to create a Regio if we already have the ability to expand its size? And if it is a breakthrough, shouldn't it be Minor due to already knowing how to manipulate one?

There is a large difference between expanding what exists and creating something new. We don't reliably know how to make a new regio level (there are spells that make them more likely to form but not how to reliably make them. We also don't know how to actually make or close entrances to existing levels.

Granted. Making a portal that leads to a store room at your covenant or just teleporting there and back via arcane connection was already brought up and isn't really that different from having a bag of holding. There wouldn't even be that much a difference in security. A room at your covenant is under your Aegis, while I could get you to put an arcane connection into your bag and teleport into your undefended magical space.

also while Hermetic magic can unreliably create a regio, there are no known instances of a portable regio.

Criamon mystery, that hardly counts as a counterexample for a hermetic effect. They can float by repelling the ground...

Again, look at Hermetic Architecture. Closed Privacy of Enchanted Regio allows for closing of boundaries so unwelcome visitors can't just step into the regio, while Conjuction of the Mystic Veils creates connections between 2 levels of the same regio. Both of these can be found in The Mysteries on pages 100-101.

And while not a regio, The Shrouded Glen (ArM 152) kind of has the same effect by keeping some place within its boundary from being noticed/discovered. Also, botching on one of the spells in RoPM for strengthening the aura indicates that a new regio may be created.

Why not have small spaces that shrink people or items who want to go inside them?

I wanted to minimize Warping on humans.

DI is the ArM5 book Dies Irae. For a first look at Aether read this article on Aristotle's De Caelo.

In brief: as Aether is - by an Hermetic Breakthrough overcoming (ArM5 p.80) The Limit of the Lunar Sphere - a possible additional Form of Hermetic magic, Hermetic magic follows the Aristotelian cosmology here as well. As DI references Aether, it asserts the lack of empty space even in the heavens, thereby confirming it for the sublunar sphere as well.

It is a known concept among medieval scholars - but very rarely if ever adopted:


So, I was thinking about this last night. Conjure the Mystic Tower is a level 35 ritual with a base of 3 (CrTe Base 3 to create stone). The guidelines for CrVi show that General is to create a magic shell which gives false information about a target to Intellego spells, while base 3 CrVi taints something with magic. So why could we not add a Vim requisite to CtMT to give it a shell to shield it from Intellego magic and then increase the magnitude to taint it with magic, thereby "Creating" a regio?

I'm not the best with spells, so it's entirely possible I'm missing something here. But if we can conjure a tower, taint it with magic, shield it from Intellego, and (although not mentioned above) make it invisible, why can we not create a regio? Someone mentioned that a canon magus in a canon book has already done it, right?

It's an un-fleshed Criamon Path that specifically creates a regio in their own soul or some such. It's not really a generally applicable thing.

There is a fundamental difference between making an invisible tower and making a regio I don't actually understand what your real logic was there.

I thought my logic was pretty easy to follow. Then again, I'm the one who wrote it, so there is that. :smiley:

Anyhow, my logic is that we have the ability to create a tower, make it invisible, and shield it from Intellego. If we add a Vim requisite to this, we should be able to invent something that creates a regio because, unless I'm absolutely wrong on this, a regio is nothing more than an invisible space protected from detection, no?

someone could still slam their head into the tower just walking around. That in not a regio.

It is a known concept among medieval scholars - but very rarely if ever adopted:

I understand Epicurean philosophy was known in the middle ages. That does not mean that the complete works of epicurean philosophy were known, or that the specific philosophy of atomism was known. The same way thousands of high school physics teachers know about Einstein but don't understand that time dilation due to relative movement is apparent while time dilation due to acceleration is an effect of shifting frames. Having knowledge of the existence of the general is a necessary but nor sufficient evidence of knowledge of the specific.

To use my multi-floor metaphor, that would be like claiming that a closet with a secret door is the same as a second story.
A regio does not occupy space in the world it anchors to, because it is a sort of pocket universe.

What makes you assume that simply tainting something with magic is enough to create a Regio?

For actual regios, controlling spirits with the Presence and Regio powers (RoP:M, page 103) may be an option.


Well, atomism was well known to medieval scholars through Plato's Timaeus. Its theory (see Timaeus 53c - 55d and Timaeus 55d - 57d, summarized and put into context here), that the elements consisted of minute particles shaped like platonic solids, even made it into A&A p.17.

The Timaeus explains Movement in 57d - 58c this way:

So the Platonic cosmology, as studied and expounded e. g. by the School of Chartres, postulates empty space.

Epicurean atomism is explained in book I of Lucretius' De rerum natura, available to some medieval scholars, but certainly to fewer than the Timaeus. A good summary is here, a free Engish translation is here, and a free Latin edition here.

All this doesn't take away from the predominance of Aristotelian thought both among 13th century scholars and in ArM5, which in DI p.9ff The End of Time follows Aristotle's De Caelo also by avoiding empty space even in the heavens.


point conceded.