Faerie Characteristics

[callen]

While looking through RoP:F I found some odd things about Characteristics. First, as they are not human, they don't inherently have +/-5 as caps. Second, I am aware of values going outside the normal bounds based on Size, and I'm not worried about that. Third, there can be confusion when involving faerie animals since we're supposed to base things off of the rules for mundane animals. But if you're trying to account for everything, which is done entirely via Virtues in RoP:F, what are you supposed to do past +/-3? How about past +/-5? Here's what I've found:

Improved Characteristics (ArM5 Minor Virtue): to +3
Great (Characteristic) (ArM5 Minor Virtue): from +3 to +5
Poor (Characteristic) (ArM5 Minor Virtue): from -3 to -5
Weak Characteristics (ArM5 Minor Virtue): to -3

These get us to +/-3 or +/-5 seemingly fine. But how do you get beyond +/-5?

Improved (Characteristic) (RoP:M Major Quality): beyond +5
Reduced (Characteristic) (RoP:M Major Inferiority): beyond -5

Now we can get beyond +/-5, but these aren't really Virtues or Flaws, so faeries shouldn't have access to them. So how do we handle things? Let's look at some of the cases from RoP:F.

Gorgon - Perception +6. It has the points to get to +3. So presumably its power Dozens of Eyes gets it from +3 to +6.
Morma - It only has 3 points of its 7, but it doesn't have Weak Characteristics.
Lesser Nymph - It has 7 points.
Ghula - Presence +5. It has the points to get to Presence +2 and one more toward Presence +3. It doesn't have Improved Characteristics, nor does it have Great Presence.
Glanconer - It has 16 points, the extra 9 of which have been covered by Improved Characteristics x3.
Fachan - It has 7 points.
Knight (minor) - It has 7 points. But it also has Improved Characteristics x2. Where did the extra points go?
Valkyrie - It has 7 points.
White Lady - Int +4, Pre +4, 25 points up to Int +3 and Pre +3. 6x Improved Characteristics cover the points, and 2x Great Characteristic cover the +4's.
The Privy Counselor - It has 13 points, the extra 6 of which have been covered by Improved Characteristics x2.
Licho - It has 7 points.
Triton - It has 7 points.
Selkie King - It has 10 points, the extra 3 of which have been covered by Improved Characteristics.
Faun - It has 16 points, the extra 9 of which have been covered by Improved Characteristics x3.
Satyr - Qik +4, 13 points up to Qik +3. 2x Improved Characteristics cover the points, and Great Characteristic covers the +4.
Orm - Though not of human shape, it should be noted they have "Increased Characteristics," whatever that is.

So, while most things fit, we're left with a few things that don't. I guess we can go past +5 using a constant power as with the Gorgon; it better be a big power since that's more than two Minor Virtues would get it. Why are the points off for the Morma and the Ghula, and why is the Ghula able to get to +5? Is there something called Increased Characteristics? So how are we supposed to handle +/-6 and beyond normally?

My current thought is that the easiest would be a Greater Power, bought as a Major Virtue of course, identical to the Major Quality Improved (Characteristic).

Chris

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@callen

While looking through RoP:F I found some odd things about Characteristics. First, as they are not human, they don't inherently have +/-5 as caps. Second, I am aware of values going outside the normal bounds based on Size, and I'm not worried about that. Third, there can be confusion when involving faerie animals since we're supposed to base things off of the rules for mundane animals. But if you're trying to account for everything, which is done entirely via Virtues in RoP:F, what are you supposed to do past +/-3? How about past +/-5? Here's what I've found:

I'd just like to note that you don't need to account for everything in NPC faeries in RoP:F. They don't need TO balance, so you don't need to list them out unless you want to. I know I've listed them all out in the bestiary, and in hindsight I wish I hadn't, because peoplE seem to think that's the "right" way of doing things, and its not. If you want Str 6 for an NPC, just have it, and don't actually worry about the V&F. They don't need to balance, so it doesn't actually matter what they are.

Improved Characteristics (ArM5 Minor Virtue): to +3
Great (Characteristic) (ArM5 Minor Virtue): from +3 to +5
Poor (Characteristic) (ArM5 Minor Virtue): from -3 to -5
Weak Characteristics (ArM5 Minor Virtue): to -3

'/;These get us to +/-3 or +/-5 seemingly fine. But how do you get beyond +/-5?

Improved (Characteristic) (RoP:M Major Quality): beyond +5
Reduced (Characteristic) (RoP:M Major Inferiority): beyond -5

Now we can get beyond +/-5, but these aren't really Virtues or Flaws, so faeries shouldn't have access to them. So how do we handle things? Let's look at some of the cases from RoP:F.
Morma - It only has 3 points of its 7, but it doesn't have Weak Characteristics.

The Mormo gets its Physical Characteristics from its host. Presuming it chooses hosts to optimize its Characteristics, it won't be Weak. (RoP:F p 70)

Ghula - Presence +5. It has the points to get to Presence +2 and one more toward Presence +3. It doesn't have Improved Characteristics, nor does it have Great Presence.

Not designed as a PC. (RoP: p 74), but sure, if it was a PC, you'd need more Virtues. I kind of think its Presence is an effect of its shapeshifting power, but yes, it needs more Virtues if a PC.

Knight (minor) - It has 7 points. But it also has Improved Characteristics x2. Where did the extra points go?

I'd say that's a typo. My fix would be to make the Presence +2 instead of -2. I don't see why they should be really unimposing, as they currently are.

Orm - Though not of human shape, it should be noted they have "Increased Characteristics," whatever that is.

It's either a Quality in The book of beasts or its that rule that says you can buy +1 Characteristics for 1 minor virtue in ArM5. Can't recall. 8)

So, while most things fit, we're left with a few things that don't. I guess we can go past +5 using a constant power as with the Gorgon; it better be a big power since that's more than two Minor Virtues would get it. Why are the points off for the Morma and the Ghula, and why is the Ghula able to get to +5? Is there something called Increased Characteristics? So how are we supposed to handle +/-6 and beyond normally?

My current thought is that the easiest would be a Greater Power, bought as a Major Virtue of course, identical to the Major Quality Improved (Characteristic).

Chris

[/quote]
As to how you are meant to handle +6/-6 for PCs: you aren't much. You should seriously disucss this with your troupe first. For characters that are NPCs: don't use the Virtue and Flaw system. The Virtue and Flaw system is meant to balance the thin sliver of faeries who are PCs, and I deeply regret longform balancing out the NPCs in RoP:F, because it has given people the mistaken impression that this is what they are meant to do. You aren't. Just plug in the numbers you think are right and assume there are virtues and flaws underlying it.

[callen]

@Timothy Ferguson

As to how you are meant to handle +6/-6 for PCs: you aren't much. You should seriously disucss this with your troupe first. For characters that are NPCs: don't use the Virtue and Flaw system. The Virtue and Flaw system is meant to balance the thin sliver of faeries who are PCs

Yes. That's why I'm trying to examine it. It becomes relevant for PC faeries and for NPC faeries closely tied to PCs (since there again could be balance issues). RoP:M has a method for exceeding +5.

@Timothy Ferguson

I deeply regret longform balancing out the NPCs in RoP:F, because it has given people the mistaken impression that this is what they are meant to do.

I wasn't under this impression. I had read the section on designing faeries where it quite clearly states that NPCs don't need to have a balance number of Virtues and Flaws. So I like the long form choice because it makes working with the earlier section clearer by providing more examples.

Chris