Familiar People

Games Discussion Ars Magica
1

I have a couple of players toying around with the notion of making the other person the equivalent of familars - having the relevant cords and powers. The players (husband and wife) both have the True Love virtue and believe they, with the proper research should be able to create such a magical binding where both are coequal partners of each other.

I'm willing to entertain the idea and would base the concept off of the Familiar rules, But I think this should be a type of breakthrough. Its a riff off of Mertina's original familar teachings as integrated into hermetic magic so I am thing that this should be considered a Major Breakthrough for purposes of number crunching and such. Mior Breakthrough does seem quite right as that seems to be more about new spells' duration, ranges,... It doesn't seem to violate any of the Hermetic Limits so I wouldn't but it up there with a Hermetic Breakthrough.

Any thoughts?

2

Agreed on the major breakthrough.

Mystery Cults p. 89 implies that a Faerie Familiar can be a heavily faerie-touched person. "[...] it can also apply to people and animals that have become fay by close association with the Faerie Realm."

That's one inspiration and potential source of insight.

3

I understand the implication cited. There is also a Mystery virtue that lets you enchant your spirit as a talisman (sorry, don't have my book with me) and that seems to be close.

However, I'm wondering about the Limit of the Soul and the Limit of True Feeling.

A question that you might ask yourself is whether binding a "normal" familiar creates the True Feeling virtue or creates something that allows the true feeling virtue. Consider that when the magus dies in such a case, the animal often gets seriously diminished or dies. A good arguement can be made that Merinita actually broke or at least cheated the Limit of the Soul by creating a process for transferring a part of the magus' soul into the animal, thus imbuing the animal with Intelligence and the capacity for True Feeling. I'm sure that there are good alternate arguements.

It would certainly make for a grand tale -- a bit sugar sweet, perhaps -- but I would allow it if they are willing to make it a truly grand tale.

IMO, I would suggest that (a) they get initiated into Hermetic Spirit Magic or Theurgy so as to learn some secrets as they relate to thier spirits and souls and (b) remind them that experimenting with Familiars can have truly horrific consequences -- and I wouldn't allow any such breakthrough WITHOUT experimenting with familiar bonds as they relate to themselves since that is exactly what they are trying to do.

Thoughts?

-K!

4

To me I think that requiring experimentation on a familiar would kill the story. The characters aren't going to bind a familiar then caryy out dangerous experiemnts on it then toss it away when they've used it in favor of their spouse. A familiar bond has to be one of genuine affection. I don't see them gaining access to anyone else's familiar either. this sort of a requirement makes sense in the setting but if you actually want to sit around a table and tell the story it doesn't work.

I might allow additional insight to be gained from the theurgic or spirit magic mysteries if the characters went in to them in order to find out relevant inforamtion but these virtues are not directly related to the familiar bond. I would not personally require them. A major hermetic breakthrough is time consuming and dangerous enough with the rules presented in true lineages. I don't think that adding difficulty to it is at all warranted. (Of course this isn't the sort of plot that you want to relegate to die rolls either, definately give them a handfull of adventures to gain or fail to gain additional insight.)

5

An excellent point, Erik. I think I wasn't clear, though.

In this instance, I was referring to the bond between each other, not to prior familiars or other magi's familiars.

I would agree that the TL research rules are dangerous enough. However, I think that they are trying to create a modification on the familiar creation and enchantment process (or maybe not, in yours or Kallie's saga) so some sort of related experimentation would be called for from my point of view. Perhaps a few experiments in spirit binding and empowerment would cover the necessary ground. I would be very flexible on this point.

I like the idea of adventures and stories granting insight. Ultimately, however, I would still require a roll on the experimental results table for the initial creation of the familiar bond between the two magi since no one has (so far as they know) ever done anything like it before. I would allow some story bonuses and penalties (Insight, Lab Safety score, Perception, Lab and Personal Horoscopes) as appropriate in the opinion of the Troupe. Here I wouldn't be too slavish to the rules in so far as they might get in the way of the players enjoying the game.

Whatever Kallie decides, though, I'd sure like to know how it turns out. Sounds like fun.

Best,

-K!

6

Well, then we don't really disagree at all.

If I were a Tytalus I'd be very disappointed.

7

I allowed basically the same thing in my current saga, for a PC and NPC magus with true Love. I considered that it required a degree of breakthrough research but was not too difficult in terms of Hermetic magic just rare as two gifted people with True love are rare.
I had a convenient NPC spirit mage to provide the technique who has plans for the mages in question

8

I'd also allow it as a breakthrough with the caveat:

Familiar enchantment can only be done with creatures that have might, or enough magical powers of their own to replicate that. Ie the gift, a couple of supernatural virtues should not be enough. Whether the might is magical, faerie or infernal matters not, but the one bound must have enough magic to support there end of the tether.

9

Don't have my books with me but here goes:
If one can bind a faerie as a familiar, couldn't one or both magi be intiated into that Merinita mystery that makes one into a faerie and then bind each other? Or does that mystery affect one's abilty to bind a familiar?
it would be bittersweet if one were a faerie and the other was not as one is truely immortal (I think) and the other not. Sort of like Highlander, and hence a "Grand Tale".

10

That would work without any research at all. Just a few mystery initiations for one partner and a few more for the other.

One downside is that faeries are not really human anymore. Another is that faeries normally wish to break the familiar bond after a period of time. People who share (shared?) true love might or might not be an exception. I can see a very tragic story as the couple acheives their dream but the changes and sacrifices that they've made to do it make their dream worthless to them.

It wouldn't necessarily be easier for them either:

Faerie magic path;

1 Both have to obtain membership in House Merinita (not too hard)

2 Both have to initiate faerie magic (not too hard)

3 One has to initiate the faerie familiar virtue (moderately difficult)

4 the other has to initiate all of the way to the becomming (darned hard)

Original research path;

1 Research the human to human familiar bond (way hard)

2 There is no #2

Another option is for one partner to initiate the greater elixer and gain a magic might. (Taking the greter elixer before your time is not the way to a powerful character but hey, at least you're immortal.)

11
12

If the players have the True Love Virtue ,
do they have any story flaws that would cause conflict with this?
As players they probably don't want a tragic love affair.
(Adversity to temper the course of True Love on the other hand)

I'm guessing that neither have undertaken a Longevity Ritual ,
because they want children first.
If the binding works , how will it affect pregnancy?
Will it cause Warping for any children?
(This does not have to be a bad thing)

13

Another option available without doing research is to have the couple intiate in the theurgic mysteries. One eventually undergoes Ascension to the Hall of Heros and the other binds thier ascended partner as a Daimionic familiar.

(But I'd stick with the hermetic research option)

14

Some excellent questions. Let me add a few more.

-- Given that an animal familiar benifits from the longevity of the magus in that they live as long as the magus, would only one longevity ritual be necessary?

If neither has magic or faerie Might I would suggest that, yes, in fact that may be the case. Perhaps this would be compensation for all the risk entailed in the research. Consider that they could pool resources to pay for a truly stupendous longevity ritual for the person initiating the bond. So, long-lived couple, the woman NOT taking the longevity ritual and then having children by carefully selected grog, etc.

-- What happens if this method gets out (or is sold/donated) to a mage that has a thing for a non-gifted person?

Think of what a warrior companion can accomplish with certain abilities. Or perhaps a forge companion. Or majordomo. Can you say "And this is my man Kato..."?

-- Depending on what the Troupe rules on the seperateness of the fetus from the woman, you could have some truly interesting permutations with children. If a bond power is enchanted during pregnancy, could that be passed on to the child as a Supernatural ability/virtue? If the INITIAL bond is done while the maga is pregnant, is that bond inherited by the child (making a REALLY tight family)? Is the strength of the bond actually diminished with each child (riffing on the idea of -- possibly -- the spirit bifurcating at birth)?

-- What Arts are appropriate to determine bonding score?

My initial thought is Mu + (minimum of Co or Me) because this extends the abilities of the humans involved. Could be argued out of this, though.

Kallie: a really fascinating idea! Kudos to you and your Troupe!

Erik: I'm not a Tytalus but I play one... :wink:

Best to all,

-K!

15

Some excellent questions. Let me add a few more.

-- Given that an animal familiar benifits from the longevity of the magus in that they live as long as the magus, would only one longevity ritual be necessary?

If neither has magic or faerie Might I would suggest that, yes, in fact that may be the case. Perhaps this would be compensation for all the risk entailed in the research. Consider that they could pool resources to pay for a truly stupendous longevity ritual for the person initiating the bond. So, long-lived couple, the woman NOT taking the longevity ritual and then having children by carefully selected grog, etc.

-- What happens if this method gets out (or is sold/donated) to a mage that has a thing for a non-gifted person?

Think of what a warrior companion can accomplish with certain abilities. Or perhaps a forge companion. Or majordomo. Can you say "And this is my man Kato..."?

-- Depending on what the Troupe rules on the seperateness of the fetus from the woman, you could have some truly interesting permutations with children. If a bond power is enchanted during pregnancy, could that be passed on to the child as a Supernatural ability/virtue? If the INITIAL bond is done while the maga is pregnant, is that bond inherited by the child (making a REALLY tight family)? Is the strength of the bond actually diminished with each child (riffing on the idea of -- possibly -- the spirit bifurcating at birth)?

-- What Arts are appropriate to determine bonding score?

My initial thought is Mu + (minimum of Co or Me) because this extends the abilities of the humans involved. Could be argued out of this, though.

Kallie: a really fascinating idea! Kudos to you and your Troupe!

Erik: I'm not a Tytalus but I play one... :wink:

Best to all,

-K!

16

Bond....Might...

Perhaps highest ART plus Parma resistance (2x5=10)..represtenting the closest thing to might the Magus has....

Won't work IMO...the creature bound has to have MIGHT (or in this case, the Gift)

17

All those questions apply to animal familiars too, although in that case the father is unlikely to be the magus.

18

Thanks to everyone for their insights. Sorry couldn't be more responsive but mundane job calls.

Anyhow,

I think what we are going to go for is a variation of the Familiar process with the three cords going with the Cord of the Body, the Mind(Intellect), and the Spirit. Definitately considering this to be a major breakthrough to achieve.

In someways, this will be a almost like initiating into a Mystery - there will be be a variety of sacrifices and quests and then combined with good old experminentation and lab work.

Of the the quests devised probably the most important with be the Quest for the Roots of True Love (has to be a more poetic name to this). True love is given as a gift of the creator (Dominion). Theefore, can the magi discover how and why this is done. What is the Emination of love from the creator that shines into the mundane world to create such this effect. Sort of think Plato in the cave with the various aspects of true love shown by the light and shadows on the wall of the cave. Haven't worked out the mechanics of how eros, selfless love, spousal love or filial love from the Dominion works into the project but the players are begining to learn greater amounts of Dominion Lore and seeking those with direct/indirect experience of teh love of God.

Trying in the Greco-Roman tradition of love and relations, the players will be looking for examples and occurences of other true loves over history. Greco-Roman myth does spring readily to mind with partners having true love, lots of one-side love, betrayals and tragedy, not a lot of happily ever afters or love so great will to sacrifice one's self for the other. Anybody think of a True Love in Classical Myth?

Spirit Mastery/Theurgy is dead on. Are there spirits of love? mythic beings with such true love, can the players find out who they are and learn how that bound functions? How does one bind spirits in such a way to allow them to thrive and grow?

The troubadors of Provance have magical insights (have a small ex misc/Jerbitron association in my campaign). Can the courts of love show insight into the meaning of love?

Finally, the players will seek living examples of True Love in Mythic Europe to seek insights into the how that love has developed.

Not a lot of interest in faerie, as the the players believe (and I agree) that faeries are simply reflections of humanity, and not good reflections. But who knows, our Mertina necromancer (he's definately one of a kind) would like to see his lost love brought back and seeksto use faerie associations as a means of resurrecting his lost love.

The next genuine problem will be balancing my Indiana Jones players (the seeker faction pursuing the secrets of the classical and hellenic greece); the lot that wants to wage war against the Saracens and hunt down the Order of Suliman; and the lets figure out how to hold onto (and grow) our nice covenant with vis claims over the Duchy of Cephalonia by mundane and hermetic political maneuevering faction. Good news is we run three story guides in a variety of locations, but I can see the True Love "faction" as probably one of the most interesting themes for this covenant. Just need to see how it weaves together.

19

Hi Kallie,

Very interesting thoughts! I hope you will keep us updated on the progress!

I have two characters in my saga that are connected by true love - and we had a 12-session story inspired by the journey of Odysseus where he went on an epic journey to refind her. Your interesting concepts might help me to develop on their continued "journey".

20

Yes indeed, Kallie, good stuff!

-K!