I could see a Verditius allowing their apprentice to open their masterwork as a talisman as part of their gauntlet if the master intends to allow the apprentice to keep it.
That’s really the only case I can come up with.
A Verditius masterwork piece is a lesser enchanted device. Not suitable for a talisman.
Hmm, no. If you are a magus, your familiar can help you in the lab, but the familiar of any Gifted assistant can't (barring exceptional circumstances, e.g. a Gifted familiar).
A reasonable house rule - but not what the rules say. The rules only say familiars can serve as lab assistants - nothing about who they can assist.
The sentence should be taken in context, considering the section it is in (which talks about the bound familiar in relation to "its" magus), and the "Help in the Laboratory" section a few pages earlier.
If you want to be super-rigorous, "Help in the Laboratory" restricts multiple assistants (ignoring the primary researcher's familiar) to "people" only. I guess you could read that as saying that a magus can always be helped by his own familiar and one other familiar, but in that case, not by an apprentice or anyone else unless the extra familiar is a person. I think most players would agree that feels wrong and is an edge case that the authors probably did not anticipate or intend.
I would not limit to one other familiar. Not sure what you are using to get to that conclusion.
I like the concept that all familiars are elevated to being able to be lab assistants. It adds value to familiars and makes the whole ecosystem richer.
I agree that authors probably didn't think about if familiars could be shared or not but it is not clear if the clarification would allow or deny it. Typically, a lot of these ruling go toward the side of the better story and I think the better story lies on the familiar sharing side.
House Tytalus could be known for allowing their familiars to work in other Magi's lab as lab assistants. What better way to get you foot in the door and create motivations to grow?
W
Context doesn't change anything. That section mainly talk about how familiars change when they actually become familiars. Much of it is not about the relation to the magus, though some is.
Either way, the rules only say that familiars can serve as laboratory assistants, nothing about who they can assist.
Are you claiming that only humans count as "people"?
I do not. Familiars can certainly count as "people".
From the "Help in the Laboratory" section:
You may not normally have more than one helper in the lab, as it is difficult to coordinate several helpers with you and with each other. However, if people are exceptionally well-organized and cooperative, more [people] can work together.
Except for familiars that count as "people" (I contend most do not - neither a squirrel nor a basilisk is a "person" according to my understanding of "person" and to the general use of "person" throughout ArM5) the exception does not apply, so a magus can only have one familiar helper in the lab. The only exception given later is that:
The exception is that a magus with a familiar may always have at least one assistant in addition to his familiar.
May lab assistants have lab assistants? It seems like that would be limited by Leadership ability, and the line about coordinating multiple people in the lab would seem to argue against it. Of course, my current understanding of 'Leadership' makes it utterly impossible for a King to ever field an army of more than about twenty folks, so maybe we found a place where things could be refined a bit.
If 'Yes', then assistants should be able to manage their familiars even without a Leadership cost. If 'No', then it seems like familiars-of-assistants are out.
In-between your two quotes is written half on the answer you are looking for: "The total number of assistants that the primary researcher can make use of in one season is limited to his Leadership score (though he can always have at least one)."
As for the "people" definition, I'd say you are correct in the real world but this is about a fiction world where there are creatures with free will and intellect that actually "exist".
I think it is fair, in the fantasy world that is Ars Magica, to include creatures that write some of the best novels, practice hermetic law, philosophy, artes liberales & even hermetic magic theory to be considered people.
You even correctly quoted that the familiar is deemed as qualifying as a valid candidate as a lab assistant and only people can be lab assistants which means that they are, in this context considered people. The exception is that the familiar can always assist irrespective of leadership score of his master not that he may assist despite his nature of allegedly not being part of the "people" group. I could not locate an exception that allows non-people, to be lab assistants...
W
Ok, let's go through the entire passage to avoid confusion. The text says:
- Generally, a magus in the Laboratory can only have one assistant.
- However, more people can work together if exceptionally well-organized and cooperative.
- In that case the cap to the number of helpers is the primary researcher's Leadership score.
- An exception to the above is that a magus can always be helped by his familiar and (at least) one more assistant, regardless of his Leadership score.
Incidentally, I think a lot of players on this forum seem to disregard that "exceptionally well-organized and cooperative" clause. Three random magi who want to work together are unlikely to be exceptionally well-organized and cooperative. I'd reserve that for situations such as a Bonisagus research team, or a Tremere leading his (former) apprentices.
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I think that is actually how kinging/generalling works in a battle, except that the number of people commanded is usually less than twenty. It's just that all of those people have leadership of their own and junior officers of their own who command sergeants who command men. You really need a hierarchy of leaders if you want your army to work!
However, to be clear, I am not suggesting that the leader of a team in a lab can command other magi who in turn run their own sub-teams. Nope!
(FWIW I am of the opinion that a familiar can assist another mage in the lab as long as their own mage is also doing that. I can't see a reading of the rules that draws the line just there, but it has a good feel and isn't unbalanced. Leadership limits still apply, of course.)
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That would be wonderful -- but it does not seem to be defined that way anywhere in RAW. In the base rules, apparently 'leadership' is for 'groups'. Every run-of-the-mill sergeant who leads a typical group is apparently assumed to have Leadership: 5, and it is assumed that nobody anywhere has higher Leadership than this. A brigand-chief leading a dozen merry men? Cannot be leader of all of them as a single group unless the chief has Leadership:12.
In 'Lords of Men', the head of an army is limited by budget, and their leadership score is entirely irrelevant. There does not seem to be any provision 'how many sub-commanders can a leader effectively control' based on Leadership at any level. The Leadership on a single-group leader is used in several places, though.
If such rules existed, then maybe that could be extended to cover laboratory activities. Sadly, I think there is no guidance here. So the alternative is 'Everyone in the Laboratory is directed solely by the mage-in-charge'; they always get to add on their own familiar -- but familiars of others may count against the leadership limit.
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I must admit I haven't actually read Lords of Men! I was just making a point about how armies (and in fact any large organisation) has to work. If I was trying to run a large army battle in ArM, which is probably not a good idea, I'd allow Leadership to apply to cohesive groups, not individuals.
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I think this is a little generous as well, by the (non-definitive) rules. They say you can always have your familiar + one other assistant in the lab. They don't say your familiar is free if you have more assistants than that.
My opinion was that this was a deliberate way of allowing anyone to work with their familiar + their apprentice, while pushing up the Leadership requirement for bigger teams.
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Maybe it is, but if the purpose was to nerf Leadership, making it unworthwhile until a mage had Leadership:3 then maybe they should have been explicit about it. 30 xp is a large investment in a non-casting related ability for a mage.
An example would have been useful, certainly. But my opinion is that extra lab assistants can be a very powerful ability. My mage has bought his Leadership up, and is looking forward to some big familiar bond scores soon. (I think this is a good use of an owed season from another mage, as it's not a task you can spread over more seasons.)
And bear in mind that it's entirely legit to have your Leadership specialised in "lab work" for an extra+1. In fact, it's probably de rigueur unless you're one of those knight-wannabe Flambeaux.
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If you get a young enough apprentice, they are still shedding baby teeth. Excellent AC.
However, the apprentice may be too young to fix the AC at that age.
Maybe their first real lab experience is watching parens fix the AC to thier baby tooth?