Clothe the Naked Form, a canon spell, also uses Base 1 +2 for treated and processed,
Yes, but core goes the other direction, as do
- The Miniature of Immortality (A&A p.133)
- Conjure the Mighty Barn (HP p.122)
- Conjuration of Bread (LoM p.116)
Like Clothe the Naked Form (MoH p.58), The Traveler's Fortress of Cloth (MoH p.58) does the same.
So we have multiple authors across multiple books including the core book all doing it within the base. We have a single author in a single book going the other way.
.
Unfortunately, Conjuration of the Seaworthy Cog (HP p.65) is messed up. They got confused by the bases v. the bases with +s and did both. That needs an erratum. More technically, as it has one, it needs an updated erratum.
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I think some of you have access to the Final File. I have downloaded it to my personal computer, so I can more easily work on organizing things there, and will update it once am satisfied, for now.
Also, some work has been done on the Indesign file that will be the basis for the PDF this will turn out to be.
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The Base 1 'Ensure a plant grows well' is not the same as the Base 1 'Prevent a plant from becoming sick'. The former ensures that plant grows well and produces lots of crops, but does not protect it from disease. The latter protects the plant from diseases, but does not ensure it grows well.
The spell "Preserving Health of Tree" uses the latter Base and is not a "The Bountiful Feast" clone.
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Good point. So we should keep the non-sickly one and drop any that are copies of Circle of Eternal Spring and Grow the Bountiful Feast. Already having two different spells that are the same is enough; no reason to have 4 or so.
I'll start on Herbam tomorrow. Just got a call reminding me I missed a family get together yesterday and have to make it up today. Hope the rest of you enjoy what is left of the weekend.
Am going over the 5 Forms we've finished so far (which means we're halfway through the Forms, and since Corpus was the largest of them, that's actually more than half the spells).
Our spells run the gamut from Level 3 to level 95. Sure, not every Form has such petty magic, or such immense world-changing rituals, but that's part of the beauty of the system.
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Quick question, do we want to allow meme spells? Like creating several thousand tons of fruit in the sky to fall and smash things. How about millions of tons of fruit in the sky to smash things.
I don't mind. Of course, based on the rules in core and HoH:S, you are very likely to hit with all that fruit, but it won't do that much damage. I'd be fine just avoiding them, too.
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I would allow just one, then people can easily scale up variants.
Actually, having one might be handy for pointing out that thing about hitting easily v. hitting hard. But that would be better with Rego and an apple orchard or something like that.
Ok, it took longer than I figured, but the Final file, with the 5 Forms completed so far has been updated. I think I got most of the formatting of the spells worked out, but once we get it all done, a few fresh set of eyes would be great, as well as making sure the text is right.
I've also moved all the Atlanean, Neo-Mercurcian, Sensory Magic, and Faerie Magic to their own sections.
One thing I can say, Merinita Magi will be well pleased, since their section contains by far, the most spells of those singled out, and with 5 forms done, it already has 22 spells, including 2 examples of spells using the Spell Timing Mystery RDTs.
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On a related note, I am all the way into ReHe. Taking a lunch break, might finish it today.
EDIT EDIT: Never mind, Atlas errata it to Individual so I am good.
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A few notes on Ships for those getting to these spells.
Where ArM calls something a "# ton" ship, they are specifically talking about its Tonnage which is its capacity for cargo. A "20 ton Cog" is a Cog that can carry 20 tons of cargo, has a maximum Deadweight Tonnage of 30~35 tons (the total the ship can carry, made up of: cargo, crew, stores, water, dunnage, etc), and a Full Load Displacement of 48~60 tons.
There are several types of Displacement. Total (the current actual, Lightweight + Deadweight, if just saying "Displacement" this is the one meant), Empty/Lightweight (just the ship with nothing in it), Loaded (ship + everything needed for a trip), Full/Maximum Load (ship + maximum Deadweight Tonnage), and Normal (ship + crew + 2/3 stores) are ones that might apply. A couple do not apply like Light (empty + water for steam boilers) and Standard (1922 naval treaty warship standard).
That causes an issue since all the ArM books (4th and 5th edition) that mention Displacement only use that word without a fore-word and don't mean Total Displacement. Even worse they don't mean Displacement at all but some combination of Deadweight Tonnage and the weight of certain nonessential structures (Cabins, castles, armaments, crows nest, etc). So when they say "displacement" they mean something no one else calculates. They never mean the actual current weight of the ship.
In my comments to the document, I try to use the ArM meaning of Displacement. However for the Isis I give its Tonnage, its ArM Displacement would be 1,400~1,500. For the Mary Rose I said 800 which is the top since it was estimated at 700~800 (with 500 tons Tonnage). The Size for both of them is correct though with the top of their estimated ranges putting them at the very top of their listed Size.
I bring this all up because it means you can't use published numbers and calculators without doing a bunch of conversion. The books only tell you how much a ship could carry in cargo at worst or how much it could carry total (plus adding the weight of some parts of the ship to that carry total). Nether of those tells you how much the actual empty ship (the thing created by spell) weighs or its cubic paces.
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On the "Creation of Firewood" and other Creo Creations. [Yes I am reviewing from the beginning again]
TL;DR Anything not producing a specified fixed product needs Flexibility. 1 Cubic Pace of firewood is ~20 fires, with a household using 2 daily on average (3 when cold, 4 when very cold). Sun Duration firewood for camping spells most likely only produce 1 Cubic Pace or less, even if capable of 10.
Published Creo Creation spells without Flexibility don't just produce the same kind of thing when cast, they commonly produce the exact same thing. So a spell that "creates an apple" does not create any apple but an apple with characteristics defined when the spell was learned. Without some +X Flexibility the thing produced will be the same every time it is cast, with at most cosmetic differences.
How firewood is sized matters for its use. That is its length and thickness both must fit into where it is burned and determine how fast its burns/heat it puts out. A firewood creation spell should have the wood sized (how it is intended to be used) in its description if it does not have Flexibility.
On how much firewood is created, we can look at a Cord. For those of you who don't know, a Cord is a defined amount of firewood in the USA and Canada, specifically 4'x4'x8'. In ArM terms it is just under 5 cubic paces (~4.75). Knowing this we get some useful numbers since a Cord is 600~800 logs and two Cords will last a typical wood burning household (2x fires a day) a season.
Firewood per Cubic Pace: 126~168 logs, split into 500 to 1,300 pieces, good for ~20 fires.
Group (10 Cubic Paces): 1,260~1,680 logs, split into 5,000 to 13,000 pieces, good for ~200 fires.
Each Cubic Pace produces 10 house/days of normal use, just under 7 house/days of cold use, and 5 house/days of freezing use.
A Sun Duration spell creating firewood for camping will typically create far less wood than it could. Even just 1 Cubic Pace would produce enough wood that you could have 10 fires going its entire duration. So for example the spell 'Fuel for the Tired Travellers' would most likely still be designed to only produce 1 cubic pace even if corrected to use Group. 10 cubic paces would take an army (or town) to use it all before the duration expired.
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This seems like too big a question under the spell in question, so I figured I should bring it here.
Would you let me CrHe to grow or create a mushroom? Would you let me CrHe to grow or create poison hemlock? Would you let me CrHe to grow or create nightshade? Would you let me CrHe to grow or create oleander?
Would you let me MuHe a mushroom into another kind of mushroom? Would you let me MuHe an oak into a poison hemlock? Would you let me MuHe a plant into either a nightshade or oleander?
If CrHe a non-toxic mushroom doesn't require Aquam, should CrHe a toxic one? If CrHe a tree doesn't require Aquam, why would CrHe a tree require Aquam? If CrHe a plant doesn't require Aquam, why would CrHe a plant require Aquam? Same thing goes for MuHe.
Similarly, you should not need Aquam to CrTe arsenic or to MuTe something into arsenic.
I get that we only have toxin guidelines for Aquam. But I really don't think we should be making all sorts of non-Aquam things into Aquam because of that. We should follow the core book's suggestions for moving guidelines between Animal and Corpus, shouldn't we?
Now, if you're creating a poison derived from such a toxic plant, that's very different, just like creating juice is different from creating the fruit from which it would be made.
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I have no problem with CrHe creating a poisonous plant and would only ask for the normal CrHe Base to create such a plant rather than an imported Aquam one. How dangerous they are would be the same as the naturally found/grown versions. To do otherwise would result in a spell to short term create some types of mushrooms for example to be a ritual because of the high Base and EF modifiers. That is not something I have seen suggested or implied before. That is not what the spells are doing however.
What they are doing is adding poison to something which is not naturally poisonous. Creating something unnatural. They are doing it with the designer able to exactly choose the strength and effect. With no way to know that something is poisonous when consumed (where as most poisonous plants it is very obvious something is not right when you put it in your mouth).
Only one of the spells that creates a poison fruit/food does not include Aquam (not juice or liquid, food). We ether change that one spell or all the others. I am firmly on the side of changing the one.
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I'm not saying you directly implied this. I'm pointing out that these are qualities that exist purely in the domain of Herbam. They may exist in other Forms as well (certainly Aquam). But that they exist there does not mean they do not exist in Herbam. That's why I showed all these examples. If we agree toxic fruit are within the Form of Herbam, then toxic fruit are within the Form of Herbam.
But the spell is not trying to add poison to something. You're either misreading the spell, or you're misrepresenting it here. It's trying to change the apple into a different, unnatural fruit, that has properties much like some natural fruits. If it were creating poison to add to the fruit, that would be totally different. Creating a poison liquid to be added to someone's cup of wine or a toxin to coat a blade, for example, would be this sort of Aquam spell.
Consider things like Cr(Mu)Te to make a wall that has unnatural properties. Sure, you might throw in Ignem or Herbam or whatever requisites if you want those effects. But this wouldn't become an Ignem or Herbam or whatever spell.
Here, these are natural fruit properties, just not natural for that particular fruit. So that would be MuHe to make a fruit unnatural with he properties of other fruit. Now, it might need magnitudes to become even more potent. But there is nothing non-fruit about the new fruit, which is why if you don't need Aquam to CrHe or MuHe these examples, you shouldn't need Aquam to MuHe like this, either.
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The single most important component of those spells is the poison. That it has an apple wrapped around it is only minor component (+0 Requisite). Get David to issue a clarification supporting you or enough others to outvote me.
EDIT: Important side note, I have realized my PTSD/Anxiety is spiking right now so things are coming across as attacks on me. Not just here, all interactions. So most likely I should take a couple days off until it calms down.
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A mushroom is a "flower" iirc. Is this also true in the Middle Ages?
Noble's Parma, but...
If you can ReHe flowers, can you ReHe mushrooms?
Or if you can ReHe worms out of meat, can you ReHe musrooms out of wood?
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