Form and Effect Bonuses from 4th to 5th.

After a quick browse thorugh the F/E bonuses from 4th and it's sourcebooks and comparing it with 5th,the equivalent bonuses seems similar. Does that mean that the 4th ed F/E bonuses from the Grimoire and Mysteries are more or less usable as is?

More or less, yes. They might get revised in the future, but it won't break anything to use them as they stand.

Thanks for the speedy reply.

since the bonuses are mostly in the range +1 to +3, with a tiny few rare/restricted ones of higher value,
the sum of bonuses from S&M (Shape & Material, the 5th Ed name... lots of leather examples...) is also capped by your Magic Theory score

so it can't really get out of hand...

Note that a Verditius Magus can use Philosophiae (in the guise of Verditius Runes) to replace S&M bonuses - they add to the same total capped by MT, but you don't have to faff around making light-items out of golden lamps, etc...

Yeah, the Verditi are the philosophers of the Order. :wink:
Looking forward to seeing some interesting interpretations of this in the HoH Mystery Cults

Definitely. These guys are one of my favorites, I can't wait to see their treatment.

Actually, the rule reads as follows...


...."In addition to the Shape and Material bonus from its final gross shape, detail in the construction give an additional bonus equal to the creating magus's Philosopahie score."

There isn't any replacement....

Actually the relevant part of the rule is: "In addition to the Shape and Material bonus from its final gross shape, details in the construction give an additional bonus equal to the creating magus's Philosophiae score. Other magi refer to these details as Verditius Runes, but they are far more complex than that suggests. The total bonus from Shape and Material and Verditius Runes is still limited by the magus's Magic Theory score."

So the Verditius Runes are used instead of a bonus for additional Shape and Material when a Verditius piles bonus upon bonus to reach his Magic Theory score. That's what caribet was referring to.

Kind regards,


No, no, no, no. Sorry to jump on your toes, but it's actually like this:

Verditius has Philosophiae 2 and is making a magical object. Now I don't have the books with me so I can't check (is that serf's parma, can't really remember all the fancy terms), but he has S&M bonus of +8 for some strange reason. Now he only has Magic Theory 4 so that means that he can only get the +4 bonus. So he adds up +2 (philosophiae) and +8 (S&M) to get a +10 bonus which then is modified to +4.

Verditius runes don't mean that you can only have one or the other, but rather that the philosophiae bonus is added first. So if the Verdi in the previous example had Philosohiae 4 he would get only the phil bonus because he'e bonus was limited by his MT.


[EDIT] Forgot to say: Hi! I'm new. Don't rip me into shreds and conjure a hound, please. :smiley: [/EDIT]

Winged: that's what Berengar said -

his quote says that MT is a cap on (Philosophiae + S&M bonus), so, yes: a Verditius adds Philosophia to any S&M bonus they are considering, then limits the combination to MT score.

There is no "order" to this (no first), merely a decision on Shape, and Material, and whterh toi involve Verditius Runes.