I have been (off and on) kludging around with a more high-fantasy reflection of Ars Magica, avoiding Mythic Europe and the ascendancy of the Divine.
One of the rules I had been throwing around was that your Warping Score just added to your casting score. Just… flat. Sure, you were heading towards a Final Twilight, but you get more powerful with every mistake you survive.
Rego has always been able to change the state of a Target without going through intermediary stages or processes:
ReAq 3: Change a liquid into the corresponding solid or gas (for example, change water into ice or steam).
ReHe 15: Weave thread into a tunic.
Rego Craft Magic is just doing the same thing where you jump from the current state to the end state without passing Go and collecting $200. The implication here is that the state of the Target (baked cake or unbaked ingredients) isn’t part of it’s Essential Nature and can thus be moved between the states using Rego whereas a change in Essential Nature would need Muto and be temporary.
At the same time while rego could convert wood to charcoal, there has never been an indication it could convert it to coal or diamond. Of course diamond in mythic Europe is a bit different than diamond in the real world, but you see the principal. Neither, for example, does rego convert grass to milk, though if you creo or muto something into being a cow it will handle the process just fine (at a slower rate). The idea is that a philosophical formula is closer to grass→ milk than dough→ cake. Even the dough→ cake example doesn’t explicitly include eggs, wheat, and milk→cake in a single step.
In Mythic Europe coal, diamond, & milk don’t have the same origin as they do in the real world. Per Pliny, diamonds apparently breed underground like other gems (or if they’re the clear gems he talks about they may just be very hard ice). Milk is something that cows produce naturally, like trees bear fruit. You can bring a tree to fruit with Rego Herbam; you can probably make a cow produce milk using Rego Animal.
Note also that Rego Animal can spontaneously generate animals that are produced that way in Mythic Europe: vermin, insects, eels, geese, … snakes & crocodiles if you want to take Shakespear as a source.
edit: hm. Looks like Pliny mentions “live coal made of the hardest wood” when talking about gold in section 19 here. So, maybe you can get coal from wood using Rego in Mythic Europe. Although I know that the Romans also mined coal in Britain so I don’t know where Pliny would have gotten a coal - wood connection from. Could be some translation confusion going on here with “coal” used for “glowing ember of solid fuel” or “carbon rock”.
Because one makes charcoal from burning wood.
One makes charcoal from burning wood. But one digs coal out of the ground.
However, I hadn’t thought to check the Latin: carbo is either coal or charcoal. Which still makes me think there’s probably an interesting Natural Philosophy backstory for Mythic Europe on how something they think comes from burning wood to char can also be naturally dug out of the ground.
The key point is that Rego has limitations, especially when it comes to what we consider natural chemical transformations, and that complexity and number of steps is likely why formulas cannot be replicated without understanding while simpler tasks like smithing can be.
After all milk may be “something cows naturally produce” but it doesn’t take a genius to see that grass is what they start with and that there must be some unknown process by which grass becomes milk within a cow. Replicating it with a spell is an entirely different matter, one we know cannot be done, which thereby establishes a limit of rego magic, if not a well defined one.
I can even see teh arguments in character
“Well a cow can turn grass to milk,”
“Sure, but a cow isn’t a craftsman, is it?”
“Women produce milk, and they don’t eat grass”
okay, now this is starting to feel like a Monty Python bit…
Guys, are you posting the right thread? I’m not sure what rego craft magic has to do with twilgiht and warping.
Whups. Looks like that was me accidentally crossposting from the Rock of Viscid Clay and other etc... thread.
I agree that the Roll-Many-Keep-Best mechanic for studying from Vis would be a good approach to making study from Vis worthwhile compared to books. It also rewards magi who spend xp on Magic Theory, by allowing more Vis to be used to study from -- and that leads to bigger gains and fewer botches. That also seems appropriate. The 'Warping score adds directly to all Casting Totals' and 'Warping Score adds to chance to comprehend Twilight' are also very interesting; they might be ways to lessen the 'sting' of warping for players, while being a little self-limiting.
The trick is that we want to add back warping & twilight without disincentivizing Vis study again. I think that we need to unhook 'botching' from 'gaining warping points' -- any time a magi studies from Vis, they gain warping. Treat the number of Vis as the number of points spent on an Art in the pyramid scale -- the mage gains that much Warping in a season, which basically guarantees Twilight. But with bonuses to comprehend (and so shorten) Twilight, and the off-screen nature of seasonal study, Twilight might not be a game-killer.
I don’t believe vis is limited by magic theory for studying, as it doesn’t require a lab. This is good imo because MT is already heavily rewarded.
As a test of roll many and keeping the best I rolled 175 d10s, as 25, and then 3 x 50 as seasonal activity studying from vis with Free Study. I got crits every time (as expected), for 10, 14, 12, 18 xp getting me a total of 66xp with +12 (4x3) from Free Study. Enough to take an art from 0 to 11, an average of 16.5 xp a season.
A mage reading a 15/15 book with Book Learner earns 18xp a season and didn’t spend 175 vis to do it.
Very small sample size and all that, but even at 100 vis for a double explosion statistically, you might roll a 2 and get 8xp, or 10 and get 40xp. Which is still not incredible numbers.
I believe that was in response to a proposed change in how using vis for study would be handled, not RAW.
What Ethan Steele is describing is not RAW - you don’t get to roll additional dice for more vis under the current rules. He seems to be providing a perspective on the proposed rules change, not restating the current state of affairs.
Dead-threading a bit, but I had this idea to tweak Vis For Study half-figured out, and circled back to it and got another ~quarter figured out.
My proposal is somewhat radical: Get Rid of studying from Vis, and merge it with the Study Bonus virtue (which, in these rules, ceases to exist.) Studying from Vis is replaced with:
Magi can study in the Hermetic Arts in the presence of natural expressions of the Art, gaining insights from their surroundings. The mage can either spend a season interacting with expressions of the Art, or experience a particularly significant example of the Art and then spend the remainder of the season pondering on the experience, as with any adventure. During this, the Magus rolls to Comprehend the Expression.
EXPRESSION COMPREHENSION: Intelligence + Form Bonus + Vis + Simple Die vs. Presence Level
Naturally, the Form Bonus is that of the Form being studied.
The Presence Level comes from the examples listed in the table from the original virtue, though the levels would have to be adjusted.
1 A candle flame (Ignem), a magic aura (Vim), a dying insect (Perdo)
2 A pond (Aquam), a painting (Imaginem), a caterpillar and butterfly (Muto)
3 A breezy place in the open air (Auram), a live animal at least the size of a cat (Animal), half a dozen plants at different stages of growth (Creo)
5 An area of bare natural rock, such as a mountainside (Terram), a human corpse to dissect (Corpus), at least one book on each of a dozen mundane subjects (Intellego)
10 In a deep forest (Herbam), at a gathering of scholars (Mentem), at a law court (Rego)
15 In a boat on a large body of water (Aquam), in a strong (6+) magic aura (Vim), in a hospital full of people dying of pestilence (Perdo)
20 In the middle of a large fire (Ignem), in a building covered with elaborate figured decoration in many media, where music is constantly played (Imaginem), in the presence of a magical shapeshifter whose transformations you can control (Muto).
25 Flying in the middle of a hurricane (Auram), while dissecting several magical animals (Animal), while surrounded by scrying devices showing every detail of the country for miles around (Intellego)
Example: Julius wants to study Auram, so he spends most of the season on a hill where the winds are strong - “A breezy place in the open air”, which has an expression level of 3. He requires a 3 or higher on the Expression Comprehension Roll to gain xp.
A magus may choose to expend Vis for a +2 bonus to the roll per pawn.
If the Mage succeeds on their roll to Comprehend the Expression, they gain xp equal to the Expression Level - their Art score, minimum 1.
Example, Continued: Julius raises his Auram score to 3. He could continue to Comprehend the Expression from his lovely, breezy hillside, but his total XP gain would be 3 (the Expression Level) - 3 (his Auram score) for a total of 0. There is little more to learn here. He will have to seek a more adventurous location.
If the Comprehension Roll fails, the magus can choose to gain 2xp from exposure, or choose to voluntarily enter Twilight, adding their Form Bonus to the roll to Comprehend Twilight.
Benefits: Studying from Vis is currently a not-very-interesting activity, with a chance of botch. It also keeps the mage in the lab (or some other secure location). This forces the mage out into the world, which may be an engine for stories.
Potential Drawback: Techniques have no Form Bonus, meaning this is a less successful way to study from them. This can either be adjusted (for the purposes of these rules, Techniques have a Form Bonus calculated the same as Forms) or left as is, as a feature of the rules (the Techniques become slightly harder to learn.)
A player may also choose to combine an activity taking up much of the mage’s time with an Expression Comprehension - eg, their Mage spends a season helping establish a new field with the farmer-grogs, building good will with them by accelerating some of the more annoying processes, like removing large stones. The player suggests that this time toiling in the earth could allow them to Comprehend an Expression of Terram.
New Virtue: Mystical Diarist
Inspired by the Beguine Mystics, you find that putting your insights into words helps you make sense of them to yourself and others. When you Comprehend the Expression, your tidy notes on the subject contain useful insights and illuminating questions, which can be read by others as a Tractatus, Quality 6 + your Form Bonus for the art in question (calculated after XP gain).
This is the thought - is this anything? Would love people to poke holes in the math or the concept.
I like the Tractus idea, but would reduce the fixed portion of XP (possibly as low as just 1) and add the Communication score. I would have 'skilled craftsmen' (Ability 6+) add zero (negating a -1 each for not having them), with 'Virtues' and 'Materials' adding their bonus (+1/+2/+3) normally. The Form Bonus is open-ended, so very high totals are possible for exceptional writers. Texts about Techniques (not having a Form Bonus) might become very valuable. Maybe figure a hypothetical 'Technique bonus' for this purpose only, which is half the size a 'Form bonus' would be for the same Art score.
Maybe xp gain for studying from Expressions of the Art should be (Expression Level - Art Score) x2 = Study Total. This way even a minimal season of study is equivalent to 'Exposure' experience. I would also allow gaining minimal xp from an Expression even after the Art score reaches the same level -- maybe 2 xp per season, until a total of 'Expression Level' xp have been gained. This also seems like a great place to use a 'Roll Under' mechanic; perhaps Expression Level - Art, roll under to gain xp based on the margin of success.
It seems like Vis ought to provide a better boost to study. Getting rid of Botches is helpful, but there is still an opportunity cost of a season of study AND using the Vis for non-enchantment purposes. Not sure how to fix this; maybe a limit of (lesser of: limit based on students MT, OR the Expression Level), with each Vis expended adding (one or more points per appropriate Vis used) to the Expression Level. This adds to both xp gained and ease of passing the test.
Just my 0.02 mythic pounds worth.
@PinkOpaque I like the ideas here. Quite close to my own thinking as I've tinkered a bit myself with wanting to find good ways to award and entice players to investigate phenomenons for Art insight. I might clean up my house rule thoughts and post them separately, and maybe weave in a thought or two from here as well.
A couple of things I see with your suggestion:
I love the comprehension roll for this (I set mine up a bit different, will get back to that) - and more things. Normally, only twilight uses "comprehension" and I think it would be great for more things and we could have fun with that.
Expression levels - base idea is great, but I think this is very hard to set up, and gate, right. No player would use any of the lower and I don't see the xp alignment working well over time in this setup - especially with the Level - Art score. As is, useful for flavor - for game, less so without some adjustments (especially the minus Art needs changing I think).
The drawback that techniques have no Form Bonus you can ignore and use same mechanic, or leave as it is (my preferred) since techniques are harder. I like.
Mystical Diarist: I like the idea, but perhaps retain Communication by changing to : Quality 3 + Communication + Form Bonus? Or have these a bit shittier and have no base quality, only comm+form bonus (after all, not a separate season to write). After all they'll start to be interesting at high art levels and great insights (maybe bring in the magnitude of event), but no one should get that much from trudging through Ignoramus ex Criamon's three month contemplatory study notes of a candle flame.
As a teaser for what I was thinking separately:
I think Expression Level minus Art is important for several reasons; primarily it serves to communicate to the players that there is an expected 'upper limit' to Art scores. It sets the tone for the setting in a mechanical way, and helps put published NPCs into a shared framework. Naturally a storyguide can discuss (and adjust) this with the troupe, but it is a starting point. Second, it makes higher Expressions more precious, since any Art 0 mage can benefit from near-trivial Expressions -- more skilled mages must make an effort to track down higher Expression events. This generates stories, and sets up a mechanism where competing high-skill mages might encounter each other outside of their sanctums or formal Tribunals.
[Edit:] Expression Level minus Art also creates an incentive to use Vis to enhance Comprehension / boost the EL. After all, high-Art mages are more likely to have form appropriate Vis on hand than lower-Art mages; and since Expressions with a level high enough to to be useful are rare, it makes sense for a high-Art mage to maximize their chance for gains by expending Vis. [/Edit]
I'm not sure that a base / bonus structure (beyond a base of 2 xp / same as exposure per season) is a great approach. This would seem to lead to mages farming the 'base' xp for minimal risk and effort. Since part of the goal for Expressions is to get mages out of the Laboratory & going to exotic locations, there needs to be an incentive (or mechanical reason) for mages to stop using trivial Expressions and seek out (rarer and more dangerous) powerful Expressions.
I like the idea of Glimpses, but would limit a mage to gaining a maximum of a single new Glimpse per season. If gaining a Glimpse is equivalent to (or part of) a week-long 'adventure', then a mage might try to have 13 'adventures' in a season and then not emerge from their Laboratories again until they have all been studied / Contemplated (in this case, more than three years later). It only gets worse if a mage is allowed to gain more than one Glimpse per adventure.
[Edit:] Perhaps other limits on Glimpses would be a good idea; something like 'A Glimpse must be Contemplated within (mage's Magic Theory) seasons before the memory fades too much to provide useful magical study. Or, a Mage may have no more than (a certain number of) unstudied Glimpse at a time. [/Edit]
Perhaps we can make defeating a being with Might into an Expression of Level = Might. Of course, we probably need to have ways of handling different realms of Might.
I think Expression Level minus Art is important for several reasons; primarily it serves to communicate to the players that there is an expected 'upper limit' to Art scores. It sets the tone for the setting in a mechanical way, and helps put published NPCs into a shared framework. Naturally a storyguide can discuss (and adjust) this with the troupe, but it is a starting point. Second, it makes higher Expressions more precious, since any Art 0 mage can benefit from near-trivial Expressions -- more skilled mages must make an effort to track down higher Expression events. This generates stories, and sets up a mechanism where competing high-skill mages might encounter each other outside of their sanctums or formal Tribunals.
I agree it becomes important as per the setup suggested. However, I as stated don't think the levels and the ART negative makes sense as written when it comes to amount of XP. Far too swingy. I am positive that high Art scores should get less out of it (remember that they also need more XP to advance however). Perhaps different numbers and a reduction with Form bonus could be something?
[Edit:] Expression Level minus Art also creates an incentive to use Vis to enhance Comprehension / boost the EL. After all, high-Art mages are more likely to have form appropriate Vis on hand than lower-Art mages; and since Expressions with a level high enough to to be useful are rare, it makes sense for a high-Art mage to maximize their chance for gains by expending Vis. [/Edit]
Fair enough :).
I'm not sure that a base / bonus structure (beyond a base of 2 xp / same as exposure per season) is a great approach. This would seem to lead to mages farming the 'base' xp for minimal risk and effort. Since part of the goal for Expressions is to get mages out of the Laboratory & going to exotic locations, there needs to be an incentive (or mechanical reason) for mages to stop using trivial Expressions and seek out (rarer and more dangerous) powerful Expressions.
Your argument has merit. I think it depends a bit how you want entice activities - and also vs how dangerous it's made. For my version, I had intented the easiest base to end up at 4 or 6 (since 2 is quite punishing). That really does not incent lazy farming since almost anything else will give more.
[Edit:] Perhaps other limits on Glimpses would be a good idea; something like 'A Glimpse must be Contemplated within (mage's Magic Theory) seasons before the memory fades too much to provide useful magical study. Or, a Mage may have no more than (a certain number of) unstudied Glimpse at a time. [/Edit]
I was planning on suggesting a limit yes. I had intented either a season or within the year or Int/Per number of seasons. But Magic Theory (or why not Concentration?) seasons could be a good option.
You do realize that Covenants introduced Significantos, which act like you suggest, but are more streamlined?
Has anyone either (a) had an antagonist who used Warping as an attack method or (b) a player who did? How did that work out?