Frightening Munckinism

Direwolf - your massive xp munchkin has two flaws which a sadistic SG can easily abuse.
1> they're not apprenticed until they're 35. Another magus can offer to take on the apprentice and legally the apprentice is theirs. (This is suggested as a more heart-wrenching story seed in one of the books where someone takes an apprentice who is the child of a magus in your covenant). In fact, IMS gangs of known sadistic Tytali would probably descend on your covenant looking for such a candidate apprentice.
IIRC, sometimes Gifted people whose gift isn't opened to a magical tradition start spontaneously developing Supernatural Virtues, which causes problems for those trying to open their arts. (This is mentioned in Hedge Magic.) Under the circumstances, if the SG sees your InVi lab total isn't that high, they might give your gifted child a major supernatural virtue as a coming-of-age present...then start adding more virtues (and corresponding flaws) every time it looks like you might be able to open their arts.

2> a bonisagus could go "Wow! That's the best apprentice I've ever seen!" and take it from you. Even worse, if you have a player character Bonisagus in your covenant they'd probably do it deliberately.

Yup, i know that. They would have to find out about the potential first.

  1. I thought the character should have at least 5 years before first aging roll as active magi.

Well, the parens in this case had a Leadership of something like 8-9 IIRC, and the covenant has a bundle of people with Int+MT reaching ridiculous heights(realise that this covenant was played out for something like 150 years at a fairly rapid and XP intensive rate), if need be the parens can certainly pull together a lab total well above 150. Probably a good bit over 200 by cashing in on some favours.

And anyone trying to steal her apprentice better be ready for a VERY quick and painful death. Or possibly a very stretched out and exceptionally awful non-death. This parens is not far from a century beyond becoming an archmagi. And the other ex-PC magi in the covenant are not far behind in power...
And then there´s the 3 older magi that preceeded the new batch that were the PCs. Last time they ventured outside with serious intentions, mundanes thought the apocalypse was happening. :smiling_imp:
This covenant btw was the last one we played closely by RAW(mostly we stretched the R/D/T out so it wasn´t as easy to have long duration, long range, target everything spells), went totally overpowered despite noone really trying to munchkin.

While I would argue that time is not mentioned, so it's underdefined. There's no reason to assume that they happen simultaneously (hey, free group target, only better! - to twist an expression used above), merely that they occur within a very slim time frame.
To me, stacking multiple castings of twilight touch into one event is rather like multi casting pilum of fire and claiming that "I got him with 6 pila, that's +90 damage, soaked together obviously, because they are cast together!", which I trust you will disagree with?

I never claimed 75 XPs was not significant.
I still think that causing 5 different stones to fly through the air (simultaneously or nearly so, depending), at 5 different moving targets, from angles that need not be simple considering you own location - each feats the equivalent of throwing a stone with you hand, only rather harder because you have an extra dimension - at merely -5 to targetting is fairly cheap, yes.
I never claimed it was munchkin-y (or that it was not), I merely pointed out A) the penalty is to targettting, not casting and B) -1 to each tergetting is not what would stop me - the XP cost would indeed much more likely be.

No, but I wouldn't allow them to stack together, they could be simultaneous and still be discrete events to be resisted/soaked separately.

Well, bringing up a mastery score of 5 in a munchkin thread...I'm just saying that such a level of mastery may not be a munchkin type of move.
Targeting rule for multiple cast spells is "Penalty of one for every separate target, including the first." Also, it is suggested that the SG can penalize (more than the targeting rule) or prohibit spells at targets in opposite directions. I want to be clear that specialists are not always munchkins... For example Lasse Rohde's Herpes of Hermes above is a specialist, but I don't find it to be a munchkin. So he can cast Hermes Portal at gauntlet. How useful is that from a munchkin perspective?

Agreed. I've not seen characters with Mastery that high yet, but mastery has been demonstrated as being incredibly powerful and getting to a score of 5 is certainly worth it, and not munchkin imho at all for the right concept. I'd say that Magi are silly not to get basic mastery (scr 1) in the spells they cast all the time.

Well, allow me to introduce you to Marcus of Tytalus... I haven't really played him, yet. He's ~30 years pg (with 40 xp/year not 30 xp per RAW, and learning spells as per the chargen rules.) He has PoF at 5, BoAF ad 5 and Wall of Living Wood at 4, but he also has Flawless magic so that only cost him ~100 xp, not 200 it would for another character without that virtue.

Nice! And point well proved, and fastcast + multi-cast make for a quick ending to mundane battle.

The only place he was "played" was in the Dimicatio in the Normandy Tournament for the Bibracte saga. I asked Peregrine_Bjornaer to run the Dimicatio, I think he was lucky to win it. I just designed him to do well/place.

While I would argue that time is not mentioned, so it's underdefined. There's no reason to assume that they happen simultaneously (hey, free group target, only better! - to twist an expression used above), merely that they occur within a very slim time frame.
To me, stacking multiple castings of twilight touch into one event is rather like multi casting pilum of fire and claiming that "I got him with 6 pila, that's +90 damage, soaked together obviously, because they are cast together!", which I trust you will disagree with?

suicidal of criamon, the analpabet.

Sta 0

Cr 6
Vi 6

Decides to cast Thouch of twiligth using 2 pawns of vis (why? its a Criamon, dont ask) botches. Results? too powerfull he gains 3 WP. Also gains 2WP from the vis and just at the moment Anoyingus from Titalus (best friend) warp him 2wp plus just for laughs.

what's happening in your opinion? they are diferent events? will Suicidal of criamon have 3 twilights? or could the SG the oportunity to grant him a minor... ?

first 2 elements (original spell and botch of original spell) are probably the same event, though I'd foresee rather an argument about it.

Anoyingus' spell is a seperate event, regardless of timing.

So its going to have 2 twilights? one of 2 one of 5? do you think that the twiligth will care were the points are coming from?
figure out for a moment one of your magus being touch in combat by that bastard with 6 Touchs of twiligth... a simple lvl15.
Now think as SG, one magus hit by that. what? 6 simultaneous twilights? that is awfull.

i dont claim that 6 pilum of fire do damage 90 but i do claim that will burn a room quicker. Not considering the stack of spells but the event as a whole.

I have 2 choices - I can think as an SG or as physicist. This limitation is within me. As an SG I will apply the rules, noting that once a mage is in twilight s/he is impervius to effects. So 1 non-instant twilight.
I'd probably also see about getting the blighter with mastery 5 of that bad Touch deader than a doornail, but that's secondary.

As a physicist, I will point out that seperate simulataneous events are a fiction created by lack of perceptive presicion, and that the concept of simultanity becomes suspect for events seperated from eachother in space.
I trust you will agree that my thinking as an SG is preferable. :slight_smile:

I never said you made that claim - merely that for me, there's no real difference.
You demand seperate castings to be resolved together as I see it.

What we disagree on is the defnition of 'event' within the context.

In some sagas very much so. In other sagas not at all. In our Troupe the guy with the penetration 50 PoF would run into other kinds of problems than opponents with a magic resistance to beat. I know my SG wouldn't find that frightening anyway. But if the definition of munchkinism must have something to do with combat efficiency (rather than merely pushing the limits of what is possible thorugh innovative combos and performing creative readings of the rules) I'll propose something else entirely.

Something that is sure to cause some stir btw, if not for anything else, then for the fact that transforming into dragons has been discussed much in this forum, both a long time ago; some time ago; and again very recently. Before everyone starts to go on about rules and magnitudes, please consider if that fits better into one of those other threads. This version doesn't care about game balance (why should it, it’s Munchkin) and it is deliberately twisting the rules and guidelines of the Core Rulebook to make the most powerful spell, that might make at least some SG’s frightened.

Name: Trogdor the Dragon-Man
Age: 24 / Hermetic age: +0

Puissant Muto and Affinity with Muto
Minor Magical Focus (Self-Transformation)
Skilled Parens
Life Boost
+1 Major Hermetic Virtue, +1 House Virtue, +2 Minor Virtues

Covenant Upbringing
+2 Major Flaws, +3 Minor Flaws

Intelligence +3

Muto 20 +3
Animal, Corpus, Ignem, Mentem and Vim 5

  • 18 xp for other Arts/Abilities

The Transformation of Trogdor, MuCo(An,Ig,Me,Vi) 45
[tab][/tab]Turns man into Size +10 Dragon of Fire, with a Magic Might of 45.
(Base 10, +0 Personal, +3 Moon, +0 Individual, +3 for size, requisites are free)
Gift of the Bear’s Fortitude (+7 Soak), MuCo 45
The Voice of the Bjornaer Magus, MuAn 15

  • Another 45 levels of spells

Imagine him honing his hunter instinct by casting Mists of Change on a village just when darkness falls upon the land. He then counts to 1111 and then takes off; with the goal of swallowing whole all female (only) animals before sunrise. Frightening for the SG? - Questionable… Frightening for the villagers? – Definitely! :laughing:

Lb total for MuCo comes up at
+3 int
+20 Mu
+3 puissant Muto
+10 Co (and requisites, doubled for self transformation, but NOT for gift of bear or voice of bjornaer)
+6?? MT (yo never said so)
+3 (random number assigned by the book)
= 45.

So you can have level 45 spells to turn to dragon at character creation, but not the +7 soak spell. At least IMS.

Still, IIRC each point of Might was worth a spell level. No idea where I got that idea, but I guess it is around somewhere. ROP:M?

Nice one in any case. Needs some fine tuning but the idea has been in the back of my mind since... forever, I think :laughing:

So, the term munchkin, is subjective... Which is what I've been saying, if indirectly. In a social saga with little combat, is the munchkin the gently gifted magus with deft Mentem? In a saga focusing on scarce money a terram expert who creates money, or glass, or The Lab of Bonisagus the munchkin?
I think munchkin applies to the player who takes his character concept and then proceeds to ruin the fun of the saga for everyone because of how he plays that character. Of the characters I've seen presented, I like to think I could come up with stories that challenge and entertain them individually, and the troupe as a whole. I don't mind specialists, I like specialists. They are very strong in specific areas, and incredibly weak in others, and in that gap is where all the interesting story possibilities lie. Does the specialist go deep and solve problems creatively with his Arts? Does he collaborate with other players' magi to get the job done, trade favors and therefore enrich the saga?

AFAIS this threat is to show up ultra tuned/focuse chars and mindblowing concepts. That endeed enrich the game's lore showing mechanics you probably werent unaware.
I see seeds for sagas and epic nemesis. And btw i loved the idea of the spontaneous street dancer. Precious concept.
Please continue aporting nice concepts

Why the Diedne did bad messing around with the Gruagachan.

Int +2 (enough)
Sta +2

  • Mercenary captain (a band of 10 followers)
  • Gruagach master (he has a pair or 3 ungifted gruagachan that follow his orders
  • Veteran

Speak pictish 4
Single weapon (mace) 5
Great weapon (staff) 5
Thrown weapon (bouders) 3

Give 4 (50xp)
Blessing 10 (55xp)
Shape 10 (55xp)

The other abilities are irrelevant, but he can increase that quite easily


  • Form of the Ancestors (GvSh15) Personal, sun, individual --> Turns a guy into a size +5 giant. No MR, but +10 strength and increase damage ranges as usual.
  • Major virtue: immunity to fire (GvBl25).
  • Minor virtue: tough (GvBl20).

Now he goes around and casts the spell using his flexible gruagach magic on all the guys in his warband. There you go. 15 or so size +5 trained warriors (trained group giants, oh yeah baby) armed to the teeth and throwing boulders at you. No magic resistance but they have fairly high soak (armor, tough virtue) and damage ranges, weapons the size of telephone poles and can use slings that throw stones the size of a car on your pretty covenant besides being fairly competent fighters both as giants and as humans. Gruagach magic is more flexible than hermetic magic, so equipment shapeshifts with the guys.

He is gentle gifted so that he can interact with potential employers easily, but you can remove it if you just want the smack power. The Mercenary captain and gruagach master are there to make sure he has a team of suitable warriors ready, but given time to prepare and a bunch of willing people he can create an army thousands strong in the morning to attack you.

Susceptible to Mentem magics, but apart from that, quite an assault group. :slight_smile:

And one wonders where the sentence "Druid's Dale destroyed by giants" sentence in Lion of the North comes from :laughing: :smiling_imp:


Even better they are large enough to need +2 magnitudes for size on Corpus spells. Beautiful.
I'll be stealing that - maybe passing it on as well. :slight_smile:

We have used it, but not to this level. Having gruagachan grogs raise to size +3 has been a common feature of our Manx saga. Never occurred to me to create a whole fighting group of them, though. Weird.


Yeah, sorry about the confusion. I had all the math in the post at some point, but due to my pretty long posts in this thread recently I decided to cut away some of it. The idea was, as with the other base designs, to have a MT of 3, with an appropriate speciality. And then allow for some flexibility in the rest of the design depending on whether you wanted to go for MuVi metamagic spells, MuCo/MuAn for more transformations, or even MuMe to completely rewrite peoples memories. In any case you could then easily reach the last 'two steps' through:

  1. Spending some of the remaining 45 xp from apprenticeship on raising Muto (20>21>22 = 29 xp)
  2. Spending some of the remaining 45 xp from apprenticeship on raising Forms (5>6 x5 = 30 xp)
  3. Puissant MT
  4. Great Intelligence x2

I'm not really sure i get the part about the focus not covering the other two spells. Voice of Bjornaer is MuAn level 15, which he could pull off even if he had a deficiency with Muto. My interpretation of Self-Transformation does include changing your own skin into an unnaturally tough hide, however, which is why it does affect GotBF.

With incredible characteristics, amazing wound brackets, high soak, huge amounts of fatigue levels burnable for either combat or spellcasting, potent magic resistance and more, this one spell pretty much does it all. But there is plenty of room for improvement, and by 'room' I'm also talking about leftover xp and virtues to do it with.

I'm glad you like the design though :slight_smile: