Frightening Munckinism

Games Discussion Ars Magica
127

It only becomes truly Munckin for individuals that combine high Soak with Huge Size IMO, as I mentioned above.
Under more common circumstances, the virtue would be much less prominent, albeit a great deal stronger than the 'actual intention'.
A middle ground that might make sense (although it has nothing to do with the wording of the virtue) might be this:

"Lower the penalties from fatigue by 1 step, and lower the penalties from your worst wound by 1 step."

This makes sense, since the character can shrug off some of the worst penalties of his worst conditions. Enduring constitution will make him go "It's just a flesh wound - I can still fight", instead of "It's merely a myriad of stabs - i can't feel a thing".
In game terms this would mean that the penalty for fatigue would be lowered by 1 or 2 points, depending on the severity of the condition. Note that it only lowers the penalties by one step, not the actual fatigue level; thus you wouldn't suffer a -5 penalty, when you would normally be unconscious. Also the virtue lowers the penalty for your worst wound by 1 or 2 points, again depending on the severity of the wound. Thus the virtue saves you from 0-4 points of penalties, and I don't find that overly abusive, since you would only get the 4 point penalty discount when you were at least Tired and Medium wounded.

128

Well, here is my entry. I know she could be tweaked to be even more unbalanced. Still, if I was trying to be a munchkin, this is what I would bring.

Gretchen fillus Peter of House Flambeau

Characteristics: Int +3, Per +3, Pre -3, Com -3, Str -3, Sta +3, Dex -3, Qik +3

Size: 0

Age: 29 Height :5’ 4” Weight: 120 lbs, Gender: Female
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0
Confidence: 2(5)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Affinity with Parma Magica, Affinity with Penetration, Affinity with Vim, Deft Form: Vim, Puissant Concentration, Puissant Parma Magica, Puissant Penetration, Puissant Perdo, Puissant Vim, Self-Confident, Skilled Parens, Ambitious (Major) Restriction (Can not cast magic on boats), Magical Animal Companion, Temperate, Weak Characteristics x2
Personality Traits:
Soak: +3
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20)
Abilities: Arts: Cr 5, In 6, Mu 5, Pe 4+3, Re 0, An 0, Aq 0, 9, Co 1, He 1, Ig 1, Im 4, Me 1, Te 0, Vi 14+3
Equipment: Artes Liberales: 1 (Ceremonial magic), Athletics 1 (running), Awareness: 5 (searching) Brawl: 1 (dodging) Charm:1 (being witty) Concentration: 5+2 (spell concentration) Dead Language: Latin: 4 (hermetic useage) Folk Ken: 1 (magi), Guile: 1 (looking intent on something else) Magic Theory: 3 (inventing spells) Parma Magica: 2+2 (Mentem) Penetration:5+2 (Vim) Stealth: 1 (moving quietly)
Spells Known:
Veil of Invisibility: (PeIm 20) +14
A Burst of Magic: (CrVi 15) +25
The Invisible Eye Revealed: (InVi 18) +26
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: (MuVi 32) +25
Touch of Death for Demons: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Magical Beasts: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Faeries: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Animal with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aquam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aureml with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Corpus with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Herbam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Ignam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Imaginum with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Mentem with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Terram with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Vim with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Spell descriptions for non standard spells
A Burst of Magic: As the Enigma’s Gift, but at touch range and only gives two warping points
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: As Wizards Reach, but only at touch range and increases the range by two increments for those spells which are less than ½ the spell level. At the level Gretchen learned it at, she can effect all of her PeVi spells as well as A Burst of Magic
A Touch of Death for Demons: Touch range version of Demons Eternal Oblivion, which does 10 might damage. The other two spells are for magical and faerie targets
Unraveling the Fabric of X with a Touch: Cancels the effect of the spell if its level is less than 15+stress dice.
Notes:

  1. The argument about the Parma Magica goes like this: “If I take Skilled Parens, that indicates that my teacher is better than average at teaching. He should at least be able to give me 10 XP in something when he teaches me for a season. With Affinity, that should be 15 XP and level 2 in Parma Magica. Letting me start with a 2 in Parma Magica only makes sense.
  2. The munchkin would probably try to spont a ring duration, circle target versions of Maintaining the Demanding spell to maintain other spontaneous spells with concentration duration.
  3. The munchkin is also going to try to get bonuses on the concentration roll based on not having to use words or gestures for the spells, when he uses The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim.
  4. The Magical Animal Comanion doesn’t actually get built until the munchkin is in a situation where he knows what sort of animal would help him overcome the current obstacle.
  5. The main advantage of using The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim instead of using inventing spells with sight range is that this allows the spell to have higher penetration for the same power.
  6. The casting totals do not include the Penetration Ability.
129

Well, here is my entry. I know she could be tweaked to be even more unbalanced. Still, if I was trying to be a munchkin, this is what I would bring.

Gretchen fillus Peter of House Flambeau

Characteristics: Int +3, Per +3, Pre -3, Com -3, Str -3, Sta +3, Dex -3, Qik +3

Size: 0

Age: 29 Height :5’ 4” Weight: 120 lbs, Gender: Female
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0
Confidence: 2(5)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Affinity with Parma Magica, Affinity with Penetration, Affinity with Vim, Deft Form: Vim, Puissant Concentration, Puissant Parma Magica, Puissant Penetration, Puissant Perdo, Puissant Vim, Self-Confident, Skilled Parens, Ambitious (Major) Restriction (Can not cast magic on boats), Magical Animal Companion, Temperate, Weak Characteristics x2
Personality Traits:
Soak: +3
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20)
Abilities: Arts: Cr 5, In 6, Mu 5, Pe 4+3, Re 0, An 0, Aq 0, 9, Co 1, He 1, Ig 1, Im 4, Me 1, Te 0, Vi 14+3
Equipment: Artes Liberales: 1 (Ceremonial magic), Athletics 1 (running), Awareness: 5 (searching) Brawl: 1 (dodging) Charm:1 (being witty) Concentration: 5+2 (spell concentration) Dead Language: Latin: 4 (hermetic useage) Folk Ken: 1 (magi), Guile: 1 (looking intent on something else) Magic Theory: 3 (inventing spells) Parma Magica: 2+2 (Mentem) Penetration:5+2 (Vim) Stealth: 1 (moving quietly)
Spells Known:
Veil of Invisibility: (PeIm 20) +14
A Burst of Magic: (CrVi 15) +25
The Invisible Eye Revealed: (InVi 18) +26
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: (MuVi 32) +25
Touch of Death for Demons: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Magical Beasts: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Faeries: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Animal with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aquam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aureml with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Corpus with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Herbam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Ignam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Imaginum with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Mentem with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Terram with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Vim with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Spell descriptions for non standard spells
A Burst of Magic: As the Enigma’s Gift, but at touch range and only gives two warping points
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: As Wizards Reach, but only at touch range and increases the range by two increments for those spells which are less than ½ the spell level. At the level Gretchen learned it at, she can effect all of her PeVi spells as well as A Burst of Magic
A Touch of Death for Demons: Touch range version of Demons Eternal Oblivion, which does 10 might damage. The other two spells are for magical and faerie targets
Unraveling the Fabric of X with a Touch: Cancels the effect of the spell if its level is less than 15+stress dice.
Notes:

  1. The argument about the Parma Magica goes like this: “If I take Skilled Parens, that indicates that my teacher is better than average at teaching. He should at least be able to give me 10 XP in something when he teaches me for a season. With Affinity, that should be 15 XP and level 2 in Parma Magica. Letting me start with a 2 in Parma Magica only makes sense.
  2. The munchkin would probably try to spont a ring duration, circle target versions of Maintaining the Demanding spell to maintain other spontaneous spells with concentration duration.
  3. The munchkin is also going to try to get bonuses on the concentration roll based on not having to use words or gestures for the spells, when he uses The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim.
  4. The Magical Animal Comanion doesn’t actually get built until the munchkin is in a situation where he knows what sort of animal would help him overcome the current obstacle.
  5. The main advantage of using The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim instead of using inventing spells with sight range is that this allows the spell to have higher penetration for the same power.
  6. The casting totals do not include the Penetration Ability.
130

Good job. I designed a similar (although less munchkin) character for play once, but decided I did not have enough spell levels at gauntlet to make him fun to play. But you almost pulled a design that is playable at gauntlet, nice.

Your focus with PeVi and your spell selection mirror the one from my design, but although I did employ Metamagic on a large scale I did not exploit the 'Touch range trick' as much as you've done. This made you lower Enigma's Gift all the way to level 15, for nice penetration - well done. I also used a 2-point version in my design, but at level 20 it was still slightly heavy. The only drawback of these light version are the fact that you 'loose out' on the free warping point for Powerful Mystical Effect.

I'm not sure I'd go for all those instances of Puissant, even though I know they come in handy at some point. Allow me to make some comments, suggestions and inspiration to your design.

  1. I'm not sure you need a Concentration score that high. You got decent Intelligence, a broad Concentration Speciality and Metamagic spells are designed for this kind of use anyway, so I wouldn't require very high Concentration rolls as a SG. Skipping that Puissant Concentration would be me first move.

  2. While a good Penetration Score can mean the world, I'm not sure an effective score of 8 in Vim is neccessary already at gauntlet. I'd go for Puissant for an early start - or Affinity if you are extremely ambitious with Penetration in the long run.

  3. You should heavily consider a Minor Magical Focus within the field of Dispelling Magic. This should empower both your Unravelling spells as well as your Touch of Death DEO variants. At a later point you might also use it for (depending on character development, and SG flexibility); Disenchant, Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit, Wind of Mundane Silence, The Heathen Witch Reborn, Hinder the Gift, 'Concortias Knife' (the Parma remover from Magi of Hermes), Arcane Crumblings (ending Arcane Connections) etc.

  4. Consider throwing in 5 xp for Finesse 1 (fast casting) for more efficient countespelling. You've got the relevant Arts, spells and Quickness to master it in the long run. With the Minor Magical Focus above, this has real potential.

  5. You Unravel spells do not just dispel 'lower than 15 + die', but actually 'equal to or lower than 15 + die + spell level'. Also, one might lower the Unravelling spells to level 2, freeing 30 levels of spells. I also had my magus invent a Wind of Mundane Silence spell that only targeted a single power to allow for more penetration, and with your Touch-range trick, this might actually start to reach a decent effeciency.

  6. Seeing that you are focused on Vim, and especially PerdoVim and lots of Penetration I would strongly recommend spell mastery. My magus even found room for Flawless Magic, which I believe is well worth the 3 virtue points. Reducing botch dice when working with Vim and especially Perdo is very nice, and the increased casting total and optional penetration mastery is great. But also the option to Fast Cast master all of your 10 Unravelling spells is important. And for DEO spells Multiple casting is amazing, allowing you to keep the spell levels low even against high-might opponents.

  7. Whether you go for Flawless magic or not, spell mastery is important. After choosing the most appealing 1 or 2 special abilities for spells, you could move on to some great options from sourcebooks. Since you already have Deft Vim, you are going to run out of relevant options quickly if not.

The Mastery Special Abilities from the Ex-Miscellenea section of HoH:Societas has some incredible options under the Lineage of Pralix (practically available to all, no matter your House). Unraveling is applicable to any Perdo Vim spell designed to weaken or destroy magic. Adds Mastery Score x3 to the effective level of the Perdo Vim spell when determining whether it can destroy the targeted spell. Since you are already working with level 32 spells in order to effect this or that specific spell, and fiddling with Touch range to keep spell levels low - this is a great option for even more min-maxing. As an examble you could then invent a Strike of the Mundane Silence (one power only, touch range), with mastery level 3 (Fast Casting, Unraveling, Penetration), that could dispel a power of an impressive 'up to half (level +15 +die +9)'. The other Mastery option here is Rebuttal, which affects Rego or Muto Vim spells, but only those of other's and thus not applicable for your Reach spell, unfortunately.

One might also look at Flambeu mastery options where Imperturbable Casting increases Concentration rolls by the mastery score, something you seemed keen on optimizing. Also Quick Casting is good for most spells, especially Unravel spells IMO. Furthermore, if one could get access to spell mastery options normally restricted to Cult of Mercury, adaptive casting is amazing. Once you have finally mastered that DEO spell for Penetration, Quick Casting, Fast Casting and Multiple Casting, you realized that you would like one with a lower (or higher) level. Invent the spell, pick adaptive casting for the new spell (possibly as your free mastery from Flawless magic) and you can use both the mastery score and all mastery options as for your original mastery 4 spell. It suddently makes much more sense to spend a season inventing 2 or 3 variants at different levels. This also works wonders with other general level spells in your Grimoire, such as Unraveling (should you want some to counter high-level spells for particularly dangerous Forms) and for metamagic spell such as Wizard's Reach.

131

Another option would be to do the same using flexible formulaic magic.

Nice way to have a combat munchkin that uses Vim as the art of choice. Quite useless in a non-supernatural environment, but as a niche dude he is useful and certainly munchkin in spirit. Well done!! I quite like it as a NPC dude, actually :slight_smile:

132

Ah! Found it. I knew I had written this somewhere :slight_smile:

Here comes a slow, mass murder character in the name of Apollo. With a nice vis stack, he can destroy a tribunal before anyone notices what is happening. Do not mess with Apollo unles you plan to whipe them out fast and with purpose, like Trianoma and Tremere did.

The great thing about Hyperboreans is that they suck quite massively in their day to day magics, since they are zero-flexible (even if they do not suck as much as young vitkir here) BUT they have a crazy potential for ritual casting: they can cast anything in their art in ritual form, and while doing so they also get quite massive bonuses to the casting total. that means that they can cast really powerful spells that they would not be able to learn and/or cast using their normal lab total. The drawback is that the ritualistic casting costs vis, but well, it needed to have SOMETHING bad! :laughing:

here comes a sample spell from a fairly normal dude (not optimized).

133

Well spotted. But you just killed this thread Xavi... Now no one will dare post something 'better' :laughing:

134

Well spotted. But you just killed this thread Xavi... Now no one will dare post something 'better' :laughing:

135

Plenty of options to do better. It is just that the Hyperboreans are amazing at casting ritual-like spells that they do not need to learn before :slight_smile: As such, they needed to be used in this capabilities :smiling_imp: Thi guy would not last in a normal encounter, but for far reaching planned actions he is great. Time to look at what others can do here...

Xavi

136

Someone posted a guy, maybe a volkhov who wiped out the order in his saga. It was some months ago and IIRC he turned the magi into mice.

137

Yup. Just searched it in the forum: It was ezzelino IIRC :slight_smile: And yeah, it was quite an event. He rolled like 150 in the exploding die, though. The slight difference with this character is that this one can pull this trick consistently. But yes, turning 1200 powerful magicians into mice is something difficult to beat in sheer awesomeness. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Xavi

138

What i meant was no one will dare believe their design to be superior now for fear of hybris, when we know the stats of the vigilante enacting nemesis around here :stuck_out_tongue:

139

The vigilante sucks in 90% of the situations. I think that the dancer-sponter to be a better design all around for added flexibility, among other things because his abilities do not require massive ammounts of vis to perform like this one. SO we are far from finished with munchkinism :wink:

Xavi

140

While the apollononian choir is a beautiful munchkinism, they do not fulful the original challenge:

(at Gauntlet implies Hermetic to me).

By far the most interesting character to've appeared here is the spont ritualist, to my mind. Very nice.

141

Ah true, my bad :slight_smile: The gruagach would not fir the criteria either, even if he is a gruagach at gauntlet and the hyperborean dude is a gauntlet character as well. maxing ONE dude in the choir can make himself alone able to cast the same spell levels quite easily without support from his pals. But yeah, he would not be hermetic in any case.

The gruagach concept can also be repeated using an herbam specialist with Lord of Trees and transformation of plant to iron to make his tree-army clad in metal (and as a consequence impervious to being burned since metal does not burn). :slight_smile: herbam is everywhere, and it is somewhat overlooked generally while it can be one of the true powerhouses of the munchkin.

I also like the dancing sponter. it is a nice concept that I had not even thought about.

Cheers,
Xavi

142

JUst for the hell of it, I optimized a single Hyperborean Hymnist to see what total I could come up with. Single guy, remember.

Improve Communication x2
Puissant Speak Hyperborean
Puissant Hymn: Pentiteuroni
Hyperborean descent (major)
Major personality flaw: perseverant

Casting total by himself
+5 Communciation
+8 Speak Hyperborean (Pentiterouni) 5 + puissant
+8 Pentiterouni Hymn (skin) 5 + puissant
+4 Hyperborean descent (MAJOR)
+3 Major honourable personality flaw (from the point of view of Apollo)
TOTAL: +28. Add Up to +17 for aura and dfevotional behavior during 9 months and you gt a grand total of +45.

He can design AND cast a Sight / group version of Punishment of Marsyas (skin up to 10 dudes) with +72 penetration up to 6 times per day. Enough to decimate a group of hermetics, most of the time. To max pout penetration he has need to invest 9 vis pawns at character design, but that is a rather minor feature. If not he can only manage a penetration of +54

Take in mind that this is NOT a ritual in this case, just a normal formulaic-like spell.

Cheers,
Xavi

143

shudders

144

For some reason I just imagined a magus on a flying sleigh making arsenic clouds "snow" on a city....

145

Is it possible such a guy exist in 1220?

Why the order is hermetic and not hyperborean?

Are these numbers penetration totals?

146

Hyperboreans were

  1. Not interested in a worldwide order
  2. priests of apollo. BTW, you do not even need to be Gifted to cast Hyperborean hymns :slight_smile:
  3. Whipped out by Trianoma and Tremere in what hermetic history records as a great victory against a great danger for the OoH (Ancient Magic). At least the last remaining priests of Apollo living in the mundane world.
  4. And in any case the priests of Apollo do not have the lust for power and expansionist approach that characterizes the over-zealous Order of Hermes. They want to be left alone and worship appolo. if you are a lowly unbeliever too bad for you, but they will not come and strike you in the forehead for it. Tha tis what the OoH does, not the Hyperboreans.

So even if they exist it is unlikely that they would strike at you unless you provoked them. Trianoma and Tremere's act of whipping out most of them is a good excuse for retaliation, though :slight_smile:

But yes, as far as Hyperborea exists in your saga, this guy would be a fairly focused Hyperborean character. Hyperboreans are extremely isolationist, though, so it is unlikely that he would come out of his home into the wider world. Take in mind this comes from Ancient Magic, where the traditions are not supposed to be active in Mythic Europe at the time. Still, he could exist if you fancy it. :slight_smile: Far from a definitive answer, though.

The +28 / +17 are casting totals. Hyperborean magic works in a "magic item" design approach. Therir spells follow the rules for creating magic items when it comes to uses per day, penetration et al. So they get a 2x1 discount in penetration. The magic divides the "hermetic spell" level by 3 to see what is the cost of creating the effect. So a casting total of 28 means that you have the equivalent of a +84 "lab total" to design your spell. If he is a high aura (8 is a canonical example of an aura in one of their temples) and do some libations et al to honor Apollo he can get a +17 bonus on top of that for a grand total of +45. +45 means that he has the equivalent of a +135 lab total to design his spell.

Penetration total is +72. He needs vis when designing the effect to achieve it, though. otherwise he is "limited" to get a +54 penetration.

So yes, be happy these guys are in ancient magic and not in Rival magic or hedge magic revised edition :wink:

Xavi