Frightening Munckinism

Games Discussion Ars Magica
141

Ah true, my bad :slight_smile: The gruagach would not fir the criteria either, even if he is a gruagach at gauntlet and the hyperborean dude is a gauntlet character as well. maxing ONE dude in the choir can make himself alone able to cast the same spell levels quite easily without support from his pals. But yeah, he would not be hermetic in any case.

The gruagach concept can also be repeated using an herbam specialist with Lord of Trees and transformation of plant to iron to make his tree-army clad in metal (and as a consequence impervious to being burned since metal does not burn). :slight_smile: herbam is everywhere, and it is somewhat overlooked generally while it can be one of the true powerhouses of the munchkin.

I also like the dancing sponter. it is a nice concept that I had not even thought about.

Cheers,
Xavi

142

JUst for the hell of it, I optimized a single Hyperborean Hymnist to see what total I could come up with. Single guy, remember.

Improve Communication x2
Puissant Speak Hyperborean
Puissant Hymn: Pentiteuroni
Hyperborean descent (major)
Major personality flaw: perseverant

Casting total by himself
+5 Communciation
+8 Speak Hyperborean (Pentiterouni) 5 + puissant
+8 Pentiterouni Hymn (skin) 5 + puissant
+4 Hyperborean descent (MAJOR)
+3 Major honourable personality flaw (from the point of view of Apollo)
TOTAL: +28. Add Up to +17 for aura and dfevotional behavior during 9 months and you gt a grand total of +45.

He can design AND cast a Sight / group version of Punishment of Marsyas (skin up to 10 dudes) with +72 penetration up to 6 times per day. Enough to decimate a group of hermetics, most of the time. To max pout penetration he has need to invest 9 vis pawns at character design, but that is a rather minor feature. If not he can only manage a penetration of +54

Take in mind that this is NOT a ritual in this case, just a normal formulaic-like spell.

Cheers,
Xavi

143

shudders

144

For some reason I just imagined a magus on a flying sleigh making arsenic clouds "snow" on a city....

145

Is it possible such a guy exist in 1220?

Why the order is hermetic and not hyperborean?

Are these numbers penetration totals?

146

Hyperboreans were

  1. Not interested in a worldwide order
  2. priests of apollo. BTW, you do not even need to be Gifted to cast Hyperborean hymns :slight_smile:
  3. Whipped out by Trianoma and Tremere in what hermetic history records as a great victory against a great danger for the OoH (Ancient Magic). At least the last remaining priests of Apollo living in the mundane world.
  4. And in any case the priests of Apollo do not have the lust for power and expansionist approach that characterizes the over-zealous Order of Hermes. They want to be left alone and worship appolo. if you are a lowly unbeliever too bad for you, but they will not come and strike you in the forehead for it. Tha tis what the OoH does, not the Hyperboreans.

So even if they exist it is unlikely that they would strike at you unless you provoked them. Trianoma and Tremere's act of whipping out most of them is a good excuse for retaliation, though :slight_smile:

But yes, as far as Hyperborea exists in your saga, this guy would be a fairly focused Hyperborean character. Hyperboreans are extremely isolationist, though, so it is unlikely that he would come out of his home into the wider world. Take in mind this comes from Ancient Magic, where the traditions are not supposed to be active in Mythic Europe at the time. Still, he could exist if you fancy it. :slight_smile: Far from a definitive answer, though.

The +28 / +17 are casting totals. Hyperborean magic works in a "magic item" design approach. Therir spells follow the rules for creating magic items when it comes to uses per day, penetration et al. So they get a 2x1 discount in penetration. The magic divides the "hermetic spell" level by 3 to see what is the cost of creating the effect. So a casting total of 28 means that you have the equivalent of a +84 "lab total" to design your spell. If he is a high aura (8 is a canonical example of an aura in one of their temples) and do some libations et al to honor Apollo he can get a +17 bonus on top of that for a grand total of +45. +45 means that he has the equivalent of a +135 lab total to design his spell.

Penetration total is +72. He needs vis when designing the effect to achieve it, though. otherwise he is "limited" to get a +54 penetration.

So yes, be happy these guys are in ancient magic and not in Rival magic or hedge magic revised edition :wink:

Xavi

147

Ah, thanks.

A munchkin doesn't bother with isolationism and such unimportant rpg stuff.
If they are described in the rulebook they obviously exist. :mrgreen:

148

There's a very good reason why Hyperborean hymnists wouldn't have had such a massive killer spell - before the invention of Parma Magica, they wouldn't have needed massive penetration. Unless you were deliberately hunting humanoids with magic resistance (whether fae, magical creature or person with a large Faith score) who would need big penetration? The cult of Apollo arose long before massive Dominion auras and relics granting True Faith became common, and faeries might not be as inconvenienced by having their skin ripped off as living beings.

However, once parma magica is developed, suddenly there's magi who have big magical resistance and can resist. Hyperborean hymnists themselves don't have magical resistance so any hermetic mage with a decent attack spell can attack perfectly well, so it's a matter of who gets the drop on whom. The variety and flexibility of hermetic magic helps, as does the fact Tremere and Trianoma launched a sneak assault.

Thinking about the hymnist in game terms - they're not specially hardened against magical attack, and unless you take second sight or a decent score in the hymns of Iao (sensing magical effect speciality) or Oai (obscurity/secrecy speciality) invisible opponents will still screw with you.

Thinking about Pentiterouni in general - it also covers aging and growth, so can cure aging crises without vis. Could you also do a longevity ritual with it in a similar method to "Eternal Youth of the sun" on p.114, or would you rule it has to be "youth" speciality of psyrinpheu to counter aging? Pentiterouni also covers coals (and firewalking) so you could throw burning coals around. It also covers sapphire and allows visless permanent creation so you could make an effect to magic sapphire out of thin air. With high enough level (i worked out about level 65 for a hermetic CrTe) you could make a tower of sapphire.

149

Having received my copy of Apprentices on Friday and devoured it over the week end I an inspired to make my own little contribution to Munchkinism.

HARRY the Apprentice

Dumbledore has been a magus for 200 years and is inspired to take on an apprentice. As the last act of a distinguished career Dumbledore is resolved to produce the greatest apprentice the Order has ever seen. Let’s face it, when you have 200 plus Warping Points from the Longevity ritual alone you are not going to be able experimenting with Vis or investigating Faerie Realms so training a Great Mage is probably fairly safe (ish).

So he seeks out the best possible apprentice. Lets call him Harry.

We will assume that for each year of his long Dumbledore has gained Exposure xp in teaching. (that’s 400 xp Level 12) He also has an affinity for teaching, hey he's been spending his entire career to date preparing for the great Harry. (that's 600 xp in Teaching level 15). He also has Great Communication (plus 5). While we are at it let's give him puissant Teaching (plus 2) and Good Teacher (plus 5) and a Laboratory that as been enhanced for teaching (+3 see Covenants for Lab Bonuses). Also Dumbledore has created a version Aura of Ennobled Presence that enhances Teaching. "Aura of the Inspired Teacher." (plus 3 teaching). He also creates a magical item with a similar spell "Aura of the Attentive Student" (plus 3) which he gives to Harry to wear constantly during his apprenticeship.

Of course Harry has Apt Pupil (plus 5). I have assumed that Harry also has Inspirational Virtue and 8 levels of Improved Characteristics (enough to give him a 2 in every stat).

The Results

15 (skill) plus 1 (speciality) plus 5 (Com) plus 2 (puissant) plus 5 (good teacher) plus 3 (lab) plus 3 (spell) plus 3 (item) plus 3 (base) plus 6 (sole pupil bonus) plus 5 (Apt).

This gives us an enhancement total of 51.

Obviously Dumbledore has nothing better to do than to teach his young apprentice. This is probably realistic for a elderly Mage who wishes to avoid any form of Vis or Botch dice as both Aging and Final Twilight are only a poor dice roll away. Teaching is low risk.

13 years times 4 season times 51 gives a total xp of 2652!

That's 12 in ever Art. And 5 in 17 different Abilities! Given there are only 16 Academic and Arcane abilities Harry might have to learn some thing else like Concentration.

For his remaining 2years Dumbledore teaches Hermetic Virtues. As Harry has no other supernatural virtues Dumbledore is able to teach 2 major virtues and 6 minor with no associated flaws. This is on top of what Harry started with. After 200 years Dumbledore has probably been initiated into a Mystery Cult so he should have ample Virtures to teach. It that time he could have self Initiated any number of things.

The newly gauntleted Mage Harold of Munchkin is now ready for play.

Clever people will have realized that the Item will cause Harry to gain fifteen Warping points over his apprenticeship but Dumbledore was planning on waiting until after his Gauntlet to impart that little detail.

1 Like
150

Not bad.

This is what i managed a few pages back:
1795 XP total outside of Arts.
1000XP total for Arts, 400 levels of spells.

With no base XP gain higher than 25. So it would be interesting to use your "teacher" for it as well.
Hmmm... Around 1100 XP more... 3900 XP and 400 levels of spells at end of apprenticeship. :mrgreen:
Still not optimised for extreme munchkinism... :smiling_imp: :laughing:

151

Never let it be said that I am not willing to learn from the best.

What changes would you suggest to make this character build truly munchkin?

Although, to be fair, your ex misc has 25 more years of pre apprenticeship training/education than mine. :smiley:

152

That part is probably the only potential improvement i can suggest for your character. You´ve already managed it very munchkin certainly! :mrgreen:
It was just that i realised the two methods could be combined... :smiling_imp:

153

That was a young Volkhov character in one of the sagas I played in. A companion level character, in fact.
But, short of botching and running out of opponents, the character could have pulled the trick consistently :slight_smile:

First session of the saga, the character convinces the small village of which he's the (pagan) priest that the evil wizards who've raided their temple and killed the previous priest (the character's former mentor) must be punished. And since these wizards are part of a large, evil order of evil wizards who's constantly doing this sort of thing (what the Storyguide thought a colourful but innocuous use of the Visions Story Flaw), the young Volkhov chooses to call the punishment of the (pagan) gods on the whole lot of them. So he uses Grant to grant all villagers the Ceremony supernatural ability, and together they intone a massive ritual that turns the entire Order of Hermes into vermin. End of that saga :slight_smile:

And no, it was not a 150 rolled on a stress die. The stress die came up something like 3 or 4. It was the massive power of having a hundred villagers or so contributing 2-4 bonus points each through Ceremony. That's the big thing of Volkhov: they are one of the very few traditions that combines a) Ceremony and b) supernatural Virtue granting (like Gruagach etc.). So they can grant Ceremony to their followers, and use their help to cast massive rituals. The fact that the Volkhov are the spiritual authority for the beleaguered tatters of paganism in Mythic Europe helps a lot in this regard.

1 Like
154

My other thought was to see how fast I could get through an apprentership.

If 240 xp marks younas guantlet ready than if my arch Mage is teaching fifty plus points a season then he could have a ten year old child as a fully trained Mage.

155

in The Rhine tribunal we have Bonisagus doing just that. he had to march his last apprentice because he was too immature to handle the amount of power placed in his hands. Makes for a great story and a reason why you should not do that. Too much power in the wrong hands = trouble. :slight_smile: AND STORY POTENTIAL :smiley:

Cheers,
Xavi

156

Iirc, it's 15 years of apprenticeship marks you as ready for gauntlet. One of the early magi (might have been the Founder Flambeau, don't recall offhand) got in trouble for assembly-lining his apprentices. "You can cast fireball now? Congratulations, here's your membership card." So they imposed the fifteen-year rule to keep magi from being gauntleted until they were more or less ready for it.

157

It is "passing the gauntlet" that marks you as ready for it.

AFAIK, 15 years is just the accepted "normal" length of apprenticeship. There's nothing really stopping longer or shorter apprenticeships. Although, of course, story issues could arise due to abnormal variations. I.e. perceptions that the gauntlet is too easy, or that the master is abusing his apprentice (by keeping him as a lab helper rather than gauntleting him).

158

The Founder Bonisagus, actually.

HoH: TL p. 8 has him teach an apprentice in just 4 years - only to have to hunt him down within months for serious breaches of the Code.

Some houses and tribunals have funky traditions here (House Bjornear and the Gathering of 12 Years, Tytalus apprentices mnaging to kill their master, Thebes tribunal), but otherwise the 15 years are a reasonably hard rule.

159

Well, the Theban Tribunal have a 14 year period, but it's suggested that apprentices discovered before Tribunal are schooled, either at dedicated covenants for this purpose, or at the covenant of the magus who discovers him and hopes to take him as an apprentice.

160

A true munchkin cares not for setting.

I would not allow this in any game I was running. Unless it was a Tremere trying to mass produce votes before a Tribunal then stopping him might be an interesting Story for the players. They might have to set up a "finishing school" to continue the education (and contain) all these little magi.