Frightening Munckinism

I'm slowly populating my Finnish Saga (that currently lies dormant) with poweful Magi from various houses, living in different Covenants spread over the entire Scandinavia, but mostly close to the south-western part of modern Finland though. The Magi that I'm doing stats for are the ones I intend to use as champions of the specific Covenants, and thus should be dangerous Magi with Hoplite potential. And what better place to find inspiration for those Magi than in here :stuck_out_tongue:

Based on the great 'PerdoBear' concept of Argmark, I have created Bjartskular of Bjornear. Going through the Bjornaer section of HoH:Mystery Cults I found some further inspiration. He is a prominent member of Clan Wilkis, in the role of a Hunter, striking hard on those who invade the Wilderness with the intention of taming it. He has done the three rites of that particular Clan gaining the flaw Infamous and Vowed to strike against the Christian Church; while gaining the virtues of Berserk, Cautious Sorcerer and Life Boost. I choose that particular Clan because it fit how I pictured the character well, and also because of his role in the story I'm creating where the Magi of different Covenants rise up against the invading Christians. Boy was I happy to see that the virtues/flaws fit the concept ever so nicely too - Collateral Munchkinism? :laughing:

During my browsing through the sourcebook I was unfortunate enough to stumble upon a section that clarified how the Size of the man does not affect the Size of the beast. The Giant Blooded bear is likely to be bigger than any other bear, reaching the very peak of the 700 pounds wieght limit, but he would just be Size +2 nevertheless :cry: I have chosen to ignore that for my Saga though, since the book later gives the SG the option to up/down the Size limits as he sees fit. If you are going for pure Size in order to increase the wound categories (and damage modifier) you could consider the Aurochs, which is the biggest mundane animal available with its Size +3. I haven't found any stats for it though meaning that you would have to design it youself using the rules listed in the very same section of the book. This, however, means that you could inflict some of your Munchkinism on the mundane part of the beast as well :smiling_imp:

Also, it seems that a mundane bear already has the virtue Tough, and to rule that they would stack is stretching it I'm afraid :slight_smile: (I'm assuming the Toughness virtue was not for the human form anyway). Instead I would heavily recommend Enduring Constitution for a design such as this (as well as for my own Trogdor design above). First of all, it is a boon to nearly anyone using fatigue for spellcasting be that Fatiguing Spontaneous Casting, Life Boost, Life-Linked etc. since it's an almost sure +1/+2 to everything in times of stress or combat. At the same time it's potential for bonuses (or more precisely, it's negation/reduction of penalties) in relation to wounds is incredible! Since you are not very likely to kill a creature with very high Soak AND broad wound intervals with a single attack or spell, you would often be forced to make it accumulate wounds. But since anything below, say damage 20, results in a Light wound at no penalty - this is not likely to work either. With Enduring Constitution, after a minute or two of fighting the PerdoBear might have suffered a handful of Light wounds as well as spend 4 fatigue levels, without even suffering any penalties at all! Throw in a couple of Medium wounds and a Heavy wound and you will have saved yourself from a dozen points of penalties. Thats alot for a Minor Virtue 8)

Sadly, Enduring Constitution only reduces the total wound penalty by one point, not each wound penalty by one point. (I believe this is relatively commonly house-ruled on).

Relatively common or not, that reading is inconsistent with the rules :stuck_out_tongue:

I'm not sure which reading you're meaning there (the house-rule or it applying to to the total penalty), so for safety's sake:

The wording of the relevant bit of the virtue is "and reduce your total penalty from wounds by one point". I've always taken "total penalty" to mean the cumulative total from all of your wounds, as "total" doesn't make much sense to me if applied to individual wound penalties.

That makes sense. If you don't want the virtue to aid you more than at the most 2 points, then the above makes sense. But as a Munchkin I wouldn't dream of reading it like that :stuck_out_tongue:
Darius of Flambeau, from the Core Rulebook, seems to be a solid proof of the author's intension on the matter. His fatigue levels are listed with a 1 point reduction of the penalties (0/0/-2/-4) since these cannot stack, one might as well include the Enduring Constitution virtue directly into the fatigue penalties. You can't repeat this notion for wound penalties, however, as these might stack - which is why they are left as they were (-1/-3/-5). One then needs to remember to subtract one from your total wound penalties - but not from fatigue - which is a quite confusing way of assigning half of the virtues effects directly and the other half indirectly... Clumsy or not, it serves to prove that the reading you qouted above was likely the original intention.

I'm afraid Salutor has right however it is a very few advantage from a minor virtue.
So I prefer your reading, Lasse, even if it would be a house rule.
Or something between the two if it would be too strong in the practice.

It only becomes truly Munckin for individuals that combine high Soak with Huge Size IMO, as I mentioned above.
Under more common circumstances, the virtue would be much less prominent, albeit a great deal stronger than the 'actual intention'.
A middle ground that might make sense (although it has nothing to do with the wording of the virtue) might be this:

"Lower the penalties from fatigue by 1 step, and lower the penalties from your worst wound by 1 step."

This makes sense, since the character can shrug off some of the worst penalties of his worst conditions. Enduring constitution will make him go "It's just a flesh wound - I can still fight", instead of "It's merely a myriad of stabs - i can't feel a thing".
In game terms this would mean that the penalty for fatigue would be lowered by 1 or 2 points, depending on the severity of the condition. Note that it only lowers the penalties by one step, not the actual fatigue level; thus you wouldn't suffer a -5 penalty, when you would normally be unconscious. Also the virtue lowers the penalty for your worst wound by 1 or 2 points, again depending on the severity of the wound. Thus the virtue saves you from 0-4 points of penalties, and I don't find that overly abusive, since you would only get the 4 point penalty discount when you were at least Tired and Medium wounded.

Well, here is my entry. I know she could be tweaked to be even more unbalanced. Still, if I was trying to be a munchkin, this is what I would bring.

Gretchen fillus Peter of House Flambeau

Characteristics: Int +3, Per +3, Pre -3, Com -3, Str -3, Sta +3, Dex -3, Qik +3

Size: 0

Age: 29 Height :5’ 4” Weight: 120 lbs, Gender: Female
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0
Confidence: 2(5)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Affinity with Parma Magica, Affinity with Penetration, Affinity with Vim, Deft Form: Vim, Puissant Concentration, Puissant Parma Magica, Puissant Penetration, Puissant Perdo, Puissant Vim, Self-Confident, Skilled Parens, Ambitious (Major) Restriction (Can not cast magic on boats), Magical Animal Companion, Temperate, Weak Characteristics x2
Personality Traits:
Soak: +3
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20)
Abilities: Arts: Cr 5, In 6, Mu 5, Pe 4+3, Re 0, An 0, Aq 0, 9, Co 1, He 1, Ig 1, Im 4, Me 1, Te 0, Vi 14+3
Equipment: Artes Liberales: 1 (Ceremonial magic), Athletics 1 (running), Awareness: 5 (searching) Brawl: 1 (dodging) Charm:1 (being witty) Concentration: 5+2 (spell concentration) Dead Language: Latin: 4 (hermetic useage) Folk Ken: 1 (magi), Guile: 1 (looking intent on something else) Magic Theory: 3 (inventing spells) Parma Magica: 2+2 (Mentem) Penetration:5+2 (Vim) Stealth: 1 (moving quietly)
Spells Known:
Veil of Invisibility: (PeIm 20) +14
A Burst of Magic: (CrVi 15) +25
The Invisible Eye Revealed: (InVi 18) +26
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: (MuVi 32) +25
Touch of Death for Demons: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Magical Beasts: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Faeries: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Animal with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aquam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aureml with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Corpus with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Herbam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Ignam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Imaginum with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Mentem with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Terram with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Vim with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Spell descriptions for non standard spells
A Burst of Magic: As the Enigma’s Gift, but at touch range and only gives two warping points
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: As Wizards Reach, but only at touch range and increases the range by two increments for those spells which are less than ½ the spell level. At the level Gretchen learned it at, she can effect all of her PeVi spells as well as A Burst of Magic
A Touch of Death for Demons: Touch range version of Demons Eternal Oblivion, which does 10 might damage. The other two spells are for magical and faerie targets
Unraveling the Fabric of X with a Touch: Cancels the effect of the spell if its level is less than 15+stress dice.
Notes:

  1. The argument about the Parma Magica goes like this: “If I take Skilled Parens, that indicates that my teacher is better than average at teaching. He should at least be able to give me 10 XP in something when he teaches me for a season. With Affinity, that should be 15 XP and level 2 in Parma Magica. Letting me start with a 2 in Parma Magica only makes sense.
  2. The munchkin would probably try to spont a ring duration, circle target versions of Maintaining the Demanding spell to maintain other spontaneous spells with concentration duration.
  3. The munchkin is also going to try to get bonuses on the concentration roll based on not having to use words or gestures for the spells, when he uses The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim.
  4. The Magical Animal Comanion doesn’t actually get built until the munchkin is in a situation where he knows what sort of animal would help him overcome the current obstacle.
  5. The main advantage of using The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim instead of using inventing spells with sight range is that this allows the spell to have higher penetration for the same power.
  6. The casting totals do not include the Penetration Ability.

Well, here is my entry. I know she could be tweaked to be even more unbalanced. Still, if I was trying to be a munchkin, this is what I would bring.

Gretchen fillus Peter of House Flambeau

Characteristics: Int +3, Per +3, Pre -3, Com -3, Str -3, Sta +3, Dex -3, Qik +3

Size: 0

Age: 29 Height :5’ 4” Weight: 120 lbs, Gender: Female
Decrepitude: 0
Warping Score: 0
Confidence: 2(5)
Virtues and Flaws: The Gift, Affinity with Parma Magica, Affinity with Penetration, Affinity with Vim, Deft Form: Vim, Puissant Concentration, Puissant Parma Magica, Puissant Penetration, Puissant Perdo, Puissant Vim, Self-Confident, Skilled Parens, Ambitious (Major) Restriction (Can not cast magic on boats), Magical Animal Companion, Temperate, Weak Characteristics x2
Personality Traits:
Soak: +3
Fatigue levels: OK, 0, -1, -3, -5, Unconscious
Wound Penalties: -1 (1-5), -3 (6-10), -5 (11-15), Incapacitated (16-20)
Abilities: Arts: Cr 5, In 6, Mu 5, Pe 4+3, Re 0, An 0, Aq 0, 9, Co 1, He 1, Ig 1, Im 4, Me 1, Te 0, Vi 14+3
Equipment: Artes Liberales: 1 (Ceremonial magic), Athletics 1 (running), Awareness: 5 (searching) Brawl: 1 (dodging) Charm:1 (being witty) Concentration: 5+2 (spell concentration) Dead Language: Latin: 4 (hermetic useage) Folk Ken: 1 (magi), Guile: 1 (looking intent on something else) Magic Theory: 3 (inventing spells) Parma Magica: 2+2 (Mentem) Penetration:5+2 (Vim) Stealth: 1 (moving quietly)
Spells Known:
Veil of Invisibility: (PeIm 20) +14
A Burst of Magic: (CrVi 15) +25
The Invisible Eye Revealed: (InVi 18) +26
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: (MuVi 32) +25
Touch of Death for Demons: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Magical Beasts: (PeVi 5) +27
Touch of Death for Faeries: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Animal with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aquam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Aureml with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Corpus with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Herbam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Ignam with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Imaginum with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Mentem with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Terram with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Unraveling the Fabric of Vim with a Touch: (PeVi 5) +27
Spell descriptions for non standard spells
A Burst of Magic: As the Enigma’s Gift, but at touch range and only gives two warping points
The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim: As Wizards Reach, but only at touch range and increases the range by two increments for those spells which are less than ½ the spell level. At the level Gretchen learned it at, she can effect all of her PeVi spells as well as A Burst of Magic
A Touch of Death for Demons: Touch range version of Demons Eternal Oblivion, which does 10 might damage. The other two spells are for magical and faerie targets
Unraveling the Fabric of X with a Touch: Cancels the effect of the spell if its level is less than 15+stress dice.
Notes:

  1. The argument about the Parma Magica goes like this: “If I take Skilled Parens, that indicates that my teacher is better than average at teaching. He should at least be able to give me 10 XP in something when he teaches me for a season. With Affinity, that should be 15 XP and level 2 in Parma Magica. Letting me start with a 2 in Parma Magica only makes sense.
  2. The munchkin would probably try to spont a ring duration, circle target versions of Maintaining the Demanding spell to maintain other spontaneous spells with concentration duration.
  3. The munchkin is also going to try to get bonuses on the concentration roll based on not having to use words or gestures for the spells, when he uses The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim.
  4. The Magical Animal Comanion doesn’t actually get built until the munchkin is in a situation where he knows what sort of animal would help him overcome the current obstacle.
  5. The main advantage of using The Wizards Superior Reach for Vim instead of using inventing spells with sight range is that this allows the spell to have higher penetration for the same power.
  6. The casting totals do not include the Penetration Ability.

Good job. I designed a similar (although less munchkin) character for play once, but decided I did not have enough spell levels at gauntlet to make him fun to play. But you almost pulled a design that is playable at gauntlet, nice.

Your focus with PeVi and your spell selection mirror the one from my design, but although I did employ Metamagic on a large scale I did not exploit the 'Touch range trick' as much as you've done. This made you lower Enigma's Gift all the way to level 15, for nice penetration - well done. I also used a 2-point version in my design, but at level 20 it was still slightly heavy. The only drawback of these light version are the fact that you 'loose out' on the free warping point for Powerful Mystical Effect.

I'm not sure I'd go for all those instances of Puissant, even though I know they come in handy at some point. Allow me to make some comments, suggestions and inspiration to your design.

  1. I'm not sure you need a Concentration score that high. You got decent Intelligence, a broad Concentration Speciality and Metamagic spells are designed for this kind of use anyway, so I wouldn't require very high Concentration rolls as a SG. Skipping that Puissant Concentration would be me first move.

  2. While a good Penetration Score can mean the world, I'm not sure an effective score of 8 in Vim is neccessary already at gauntlet. I'd go for Puissant for an early start - or Affinity if you are extremely ambitious with Penetration in the long run.

  3. You should heavily consider a Minor Magical Focus within the field of Dispelling Magic. This should empower both your Unravelling spells as well as your Touch of Death DEO variants. At a later point you might also use it for (depending on character development, and SG flexibility); Disenchant, Lay to Rest the Haunting Spirit, Wind of Mundane Silence, The Heathen Witch Reborn, Hinder the Gift, 'Concortias Knife' (the Parma remover from Magi of Hermes), Arcane Crumblings (ending Arcane Connections) etc.

  4. Consider throwing in 5 xp for Finesse 1 (fast casting) for more efficient countespelling. You've got the relevant Arts, spells and Quickness to master it in the long run. With the Minor Magical Focus above, this has real potential.

  5. You Unravel spells do not just dispel 'lower than 15 + die', but actually 'equal to or lower than 15 + die + spell level'. Also, one might lower the Unravelling spells to level 2, freeing 30 levels of spells. I also had my magus invent a Wind of Mundane Silence spell that only targeted a single power to allow for more penetration, and with your Touch-range trick, this might actually start to reach a decent effeciency.

  6. Seeing that you are focused on Vim, and especially PerdoVim and lots of Penetration I would strongly recommend spell mastery. My magus even found room for Flawless Magic, which I believe is well worth the 3 virtue points. Reducing botch dice when working with Vim and especially Perdo is very nice, and the increased casting total and optional penetration mastery is great. But also the option to Fast Cast master all of your 10 Unravelling spells is important. And for DEO spells Multiple casting is amazing, allowing you to keep the spell levels low even against high-might opponents.

  7. Whether you go for Flawless magic or not, spell mastery is important. After choosing the most appealing 1 or 2 special abilities for spells, you could move on to some great options from sourcebooks. Since you already have Deft Vim, you are going to run out of relevant options quickly if not.

The Mastery Special Abilities from the Ex-Miscellenea section of HoH:Societas has some incredible options under the Lineage of Pralix (practically available to all, no matter your House). Unraveling is applicable to any Perdo Vim spell designed to weaken or destroy magic. Adds Mastery Score x3 to the effective level of the Perdo Vim spell when determining whether it can destroy the targeted spell. Since you are already working with level 32 spells in order to effect this or that specific spell, and fiddling with Touch range to keep spell levels low - this is a great option for even more min-maxing. As an examble you could then invent a Strike of the Mundane Silence (one power only, touch range), with mastery level 3 (Fast Casting, Unraveling, Penetration), that could dispel a power of an impressive 'up to half (level +15 +die +9)'. The other Mastery option here is Rebuttal, which affects Rego or Muto Vim spells, but only those of other's and thus not applicable for your Reach spell, unfortunately.

One might also look at Flambeu mastery options where Imperturbable Casting increases Concentration rolls by the mastery score, something you seemed keen on optimizing. Also Quick Casting is good for most spells, especially Unravel spells IMO. Furthermore, if one could get access to spell mastery options normally restricted to Cult of Mercury, adaptive casting is amazing. Once you have finally mastered that DEO spell for Penetration, Quick Casting, Fast Casting and Multiple Casting, you realized that you would like one with a lower (or higher) level. Invent the spell, pick adaptive casting for the new spell (possibly as your free mastery from Flawless magic) and you can use both the mastery score and all mastery options as for your original mastery 4 spell. It suddently makes much more sense to spend a season inventing 2 or 3 variants at different levels. This also works wonders with other general level spells in your Grimoire, such as Unraveling (should you want some to counter high-level spells for particularly dangerous Forms) and for metamagic spell such as Wizard's Reach.

Another option would be to do the same using flexible formulaic magic.

Nice way to have a combat munchkin that uses Vim as the art of choice. Quite useless in a non-supernatural environment, but as a niche dude he is useful and certainly munchkin in spirit. Well done!! I quite like it as a NPC dude, actually :slight_smile:

Ah! Found it. I knew I had written this somewhere :slight_smile:

Here comes a slow, mass murder character in the name of Apollo. With a nice vis stack, he can destroy a tribunal before anyone notices what is happening. Do not mess with Apollo unles you plan to whipe them out fast and with purpose, like Trianoma and Tremere did.

The great thing about Hyperboreans is that they suck quite massively in their day to day magics, since they are zero-flexible (even if they do not suck as much as young vitkir here) BUT they have a crazy potential for ritual casting: they can cast anything in their art in ritual form, and while doing so they also get quite massive bonuses to the casting total. that means that they can cast really powerful spells that they would not be able to learn and/or cast using their normal lab total. The drawback is that the ritualistic casting costs vis, but well, it needed to have SOMETHING bad! :laughing:

here comes a sample spell from a fairly normal dude (not optimized).

Well spotted. But you just killed this thread Xavi... Now no one will dare post something 'better' :laughing:

Well spotted. But you just killed this thread Xavi... Now no one will dare post something 'better' :laughing:

Plenty of options to do better. It is just that the Hyperboreans are amazing at casting ritual-like spells that they do not need to learn before :slight_smile: As such, they needed to be used in this capabilities :smiling_imp: Thi guy would not last in a normal encounter, but for far reaching planned actions he is great. Time to look at what others can do here...

Xavi

Someone posted a guy, maybe a volkhov who wiped out the order in his saga. It was some months ago and IIRC he turned the magi into mice.

Yup. Just searched it in the forum: It was ezzelino IIRC :slight_smile: And yeah, it was quite an event. He rolled like 150 in the exploding die, though. The slight difference with this character is that this one can pull this trick consistently. But yes, turning 1200 powerful magicians into mice is something difficult to beat in sheer awesomeness. :mrgreen:

Cheers,
Xavi

What i meant was no one will dare believe their design to be superior now for fear of hybris, when we know the stats of the vigilante enacting nemesis around here :stuck_out_tongue:

The vigilante sucks in 90% of the situations. I think that the dancer-sponter to be a better design all around for added flexibility, among other things because his abilities do not require massive ammounts of vis to perform like this one. SO we are far from finished with munchkinism :wink:

Xavi

While the apollononian choir is a beautiful munchkinism, they do not fulful the original challenge:

(at Gauntlet implies Hermetic to me).

By far the most interesting character to've appeared here is the spont ritualist, to my mind. Very nice.