General discussion and table talk

And here I thought we were going to be overrun with grogs and companions due to their potential for advancement...

I think I am missing something you intended with the prestige system.
How is it that grogs or companions could advance (presumably to magi?)


Looking at house selection, a question occurred to me.
As far as I know, crafting skill does not add to the finesse roll for using Rego to "craft" things.
Does the Free Expression virtue help that roll at all?

Also, can someone suggest what the level would be for an invisible tailor spell (turn cloth into worked clothing.) I can not tell if the base is 2 or 5. +1 for touch. And do I need the +2 for group target? (Trying to decide if I need to learn this, or if I can cast this sufficiently easily spontaneously.)


PS: Since I have no experience with these campaigns, is an Aegis of 30 reasonably useful for us? I plan to start with that.

Exactly. I see no reason they should survive long enough for that to be feasible. There's the additional problem that mythic companions are almost never allowed, so everyone wants one. I considered two mythic companions and one gold shirt grog for a while, but grogs are just too limited to be interesting for long.

As far as I know, neither adds to the Finesse roll. However, I seem to remember that being familiar with the item being made (which includes having the relevant Craft ability) reduces the ease factor, but I can't find the quote on that in Covenants. I may be from HoH:S in the Jerbiton section, but since I have that book in dead-tree format I cannot check at the moment.

Julia Ex Miscellanea from Magi of Hermes has many examples of such spells (pp.56-58). If the spell starts from fabric, it would use Base 3 in Herbam or Base 1 in Animal. If starting from raw material such as raw fleece, spun wool, raw flax or raw cotton, it would be the Base 5 Herbam or Base 3 Animal guidelines. The Ease Factor seems to be 9 when starting from fabric, or 12 when starting from raw materials.

Any Aegis will be useful. A level 30 would certainly be good, although in a pinch a level 20 would certainly do at first. Considering that Aegis does not need to penetrate in this saga, a high-level one will probably be welcome. Although the cost in vis will be higher, it might be worth it. Note that obtaining a lab text for a stronger Aegis will probably be trivial once the saga starts.

There are a number of ways they can advance- for example: though it doesn't work as well here, an apprentice can be made as a gifted companion. A grog could, through adventures, progress up to a companion (which is defined in the Grogs book). If you make a faerie or magical being of either group the category equivalencies are much more fluid there... in theory a companion or Grog who manages to initiate or otherwise develop virtues to where they double their flaws could be considered a mythic companion- starting with poor and using the wealth advancement options from city and guild could put you a long ways towards that to go from companion to mythic companion. If anyone young enough to apprentice finds a homunculus they can gain the gift... there are a lot of ways for characters to advance with a bit of creativity.

The discussion in Covenant Design made me realize we should determine how we want to handle languages. A lot of languages are related, some closer than others, and there's a LOT of them. For instance, the western Nordic languages (Norse, Icelandic, Faroer) are essentially dialects of eachother in that time period. Scots Gaelic, Irish and Manx are closely related, but not quite as similar. Old Frisian, Old Low Saxon and Old English are mostly mutually comprehensible. I could go on.

Let me give an example. I am thinking of my magus being from the Despotate of Epirus. Logical languages would include Rhomanoi Greek, Dalmatian (an Italian offshoot language, now extinct), Bulgar, Gheg, Tosk, Serbo-Croat and Veneto (an Italian dialect); Norman French would be very useful, too. Add to that the mandatory Latin and it's getting pretty hard to actually communicate with anyone, unless we simplify historical languages at least somewhat. And that's not even counting the alphabets! I'm counting: Latin, Greek, Glagolitic and Cyrillic - 4. That's another chunk of xp investment (Artes Liberales).

Granted, I enjoy languages and Artes Liberales, so it might not be totally crippling for me, but it's probably good if we can find a consensus that works for everyone.

Yes, the tribunal has a slew of languages. TSE lists the following (those listed in the parantheses are considered dialects):

Many of those are mutually intelligible, with some penalties. Again, TSE lists the relations as follow:

In short, you can manage with "just" two or three languages. Aside from your native language (presumably Romaic Greek), if you know Latin and French (or Italian or Veneto) you'd be fine for most places. If you go far enough East, you might have to replace French for Oghuz, which is the language of the turkish tribes.

Note that TSE also states that Romaic Greek is "the dominant vernacular language, spoken from the Adriatic Sea to Nicaea’s shores, and from Bulgaria to Candia. It is a descendant of the Common (Koine) Greek imposed on the land by Alexander the Great, who had this language synthesized from the many dialects of Classical Greek so that his army could communicate. Consequently, Romaic Greek currently has no significant regional dialects, with the possible exception of Yevanic, a version spoken exclusively by Jews."

We don't need Latin. Theban magi have long ago worked out how to use Greek in their magic. Covers most communication too.

And the book is wrong about there being no dialects. Dorian is a dialect still spoken to this very day (2014) by Greeks in the high hills of Morena.

We have enough to work out I think we can stick to the book for languages and dialects.

Sure, most of the dealings will be fine with just Romaic Greek. It is only if a character expects to interact with the foreign nobility or merchants that the other two would become useful.

Might not have existed as a seperate dialect at that time.

Pedantic alert, for it really doesn't matter
It is impossible for Doric to not have existed, for that implied it died out and was revived. And why would anyone revive Doric Greek? It is a "hillbilly" dialect retained by rural folk up in the mountains. Permutated, yes, but linguists can trace it directly to the Dorian form of classical Greek. Then again, Dorians didn't write much and were not known for oration.

Back to Catastrophos...
No Latin and not being able to communicate with invaders (or foreign magi) is not at all a concern of his. I don't plan for him to write or copy, and though I the player am verbose, I plan for this character to be very Laconic and soft spoken.
The acceptance of or interference with Latins will not be a primary concern of mine. If the rest of you wanna betray our culture, go right ahead :mrgreen:
My purpose is to protect you guys. I don't need to be intellectual to do that. :wink:

My concern with language is simply what texts we expect to have. I will go along with the rest of the team on what we want, I just want to know what it is.
While I am happy to get 50 points back, and somehow later spend 30 on Romaic Greek so I can read the classical greek texts, I am also happy to start with 5 in Romaic Greek and 4 in Latin (Hermetic). (Thus, this ties back to the covenant design thread.)

Still thinking about what house works for my Rego / Finesse mage. (Suggestions appreciated.)
I presume that I can not count affinity for / puissant Finesse as a scholarship or art minor virtue (Jerbiton bonus)?


They all work. Any house can, in theory, have any sort of magic or magus.
Think about who you are and what you intend to be. House will follow naturally.

Jerbiton is a classic choice for Re/Finesse, and the Societates book has a lot of good info for you in their chapter. There's also ExMisc craft traditions that might be of interest. Apart from those, Tremere have a strong Rego tradition, although usually with entirely different purposes in mind. And anything you can backstab with would appeal to a Tytalus mage :wink: .

A Jerbiton bonus has to be related to scholarship, arts, or mundane interaction. You could take an affinity with rego or finess, but not as the house virtue.

Thanks. I am currently thinking of Book Learner, as that would seem to fit with Scholarship, and matches my mental image of the character.

Can a Rego Terram spell be used to clean up flawed gems? If so, there are two obvious questions: What is the base difficulty (+1 Touch obviously)? And would these gems be counted against the 2 lbs silver / magi magic wealth limit?