Any conflict will be in character, which means a story driven plot. I say bring it, it's a very interesting concept, one I'd be interested in playing myself if I didn't hate the Tremere MMF mechanic so much.
Agree totally, and there are great aspects to having a bot of between character friction, which is exactly why I think this saga's overall concept is so good. Please don't be put off by my initial response - I was seeking to show my understanding of where I/we are now, not to stop you from playing a great concept.
To look at it another way - imagine what a Tremere and a Quaesitor working together could do...
Yes, my goal is not to be a d-bag antagonist who makes the game harder for other players, but to create some interesting story dynamics. The character is actually sympathetic to the idea of inventing a new Atlantis that allows the creation of a new pinnacle of mage society, but the demands of House Tremere mean that this is a very narrow tightrope to walk in terms of divided loyalties. I figure that any time a covenant undertakes a project of this scope, every House will want to be involved somehow, and in the case of House Tremere they obviously would judge it by its military value and whether it's a threat to their hegemony in the Order. If the Tremere don't have a thumb in the project, they would be likely to be a constant political nuisance. If the Tremere do have an agent there, then of course everyone at the New Atlantis site will be suspicious of the loyalties of that magus, but conversely the House itself will be less likely to be involved in trying to constantly stymie the works of the New Atlantis covenant (since they already have their agent in situ). And I see this character as actually being heavily invested in the New Atlantis project, but you can't just come out and say that your loyalty to House Tremere takes second place these days.
I also agree that the first two concepts look like they'd work best. As for the Tremere concept being a 'spy,' I can see how that's a matter of perspective. You're right, House Tremere would be very keen to keep an eye on this project. And they'll do that one way or another. That having been said, while the project will eventually be hard to hide, it may not be out in the open at the verfy beginning. And the founders might want to keep it secret for as long as possible. As a result, they might not want to bring in a Termere 'spy' right away. Then again, you're right that there might well be some quid pro quo provided by House Tremere in exchange for that kind of information.
In the end, I think that a loyal Tremere magus could work. But I won't push one on the rest of the troupe if they don't want one. I do tend to agree that for the character concept to work, the magus ought to be all in on the idea of New Atlantis, and not be a wait and watch kind of fellow.
That's a lot on the Tremere idea. I also think that the Jerbiton would work too, if that's your preference.
honestly I have problems with each, but they may just be poorly explained.
The Tremere seems to be trying to insert himself into what is effectively a private party with threats of house Tremere getting more involved, whe realistically house Tremere shouldn't be starting off even aware unless it has been reported by someone who was already involved, so the logic is highly circular as to why they would be there.
A Jerbiton is going off to the middle of nowhere to raise Atlantis... why?
Criamon are... criamon. The explanation of involvement seems a bit convoluted.
In all three cases I think one thing that is missing is not simply why are you interested in being there, but why would you have been recruited to join?
That's a valid concern. Every magus/maga involved should have something they're bringing to the party. And they ought to be genuinely interested in seeing Atlantis raised.
silveroak makes a very good point that this will not necessarily be out in the open at first. (In fact, it'll probably be hidden for a while.) Yes, eventually it'll become too big to hide. But for the first few years there will be a great advantage to keeping things hidden.
Here's a longer explanation!
The Tremere: This character is likely brought in early in the project as a specialist in architecture and geometry. Having the ability to make gates that ease travel between regio, or alter the magical aura of an area, is immensely valuable for this kind of project. So, the character has magical architectural knowledge that is just too good to pass up. The kicker of course is the Tremere political problem -- but the character would be very keen to work on a project like this, where these kinds of magical talents can really be flexed and put to use. Presumably this character is introduced to the others via correspondence, after being recommended by someone due to the useful specialized building skills. Knowing off the bat that other magi will instantly assume "Well if you are from House Tremere, then everything you do is going to be for them," the magus would have to basically say up front, "Look, House Tremere is going to have an eye on this project, one way or the other. Now, if you let me work with you, then you can decide what you want me to tell them. If you say no, they will just find some other way to get a peek at the project. This isn't blackmail, it's just what the House is going to do regardless - I can't stop them, but I can at least keep them from interfering."
The Jerbiton: Per the Societies book, the Jerbiton see themselves as the cultural inheritors of Constantinople, determined to rebuild the glory of a high civilization and trying to find a synthesis between magi and mundanes -- that is, a world in which the two live together and learn from each other, rather than magi living in a stunted and insular society while mortals have none of the benefits that magic can bring. This specific character is unusual by Jerbiton standards in believing that the time of Constantinople has gone (the city's been sacked like four times at this point), and while Atlantis fell, it was wholly destroyed and now something new can be built out of it. The primary difference is that even after being sacked, Constantinople was still inhabited and still remained a living city. Atlantis became a myth. Now, it may be possible to make a new society, using that myth as a foundation (since myths have magical power) but choosing the form that it will take by carefully cultivating the desired aspects. So, this Jerbiton is still very much a social creature, a political magus, and someone interested in culture, but unlike the rest of the House is not obsessed with rebuilding the Roman Empire or Constantinople as a centerpoint for a centralized civilization that spans Europe -- indeed, the character feels that "that ship has sailed" and it is time to build something new to re-invigorate Europe, rather that constantly going back to the old well that failed repeatedly. This character probably wound up involved in the project after being a guest visitor at one of the home Tribunals of one of the other magi and becoming interested in the idea of creating a new society from the ground up via the Atlantis project.
The Criamon: Per the Mysteries book, the Criamon believe that they are trapped in an endlessly repeating cycle of time. Atlantis has such powerful mythic cachet, though, that this particular character believes that Atlantis must have some way to escape the riddle of Time. Indeed, in a conspiracy-theory fashion, the character believes that was why Atlantis was destroyed in the first place -- because "they" (whoever the sinister "they" are that control Time) didn't want to allow people to escape the trap of circular Time, and therefore the city had to be destroyed. By rebuilding it and learning its secrets, this character hopes to finally solve the Enigma and step outside the trap of circular Time. Notably, because the Mysteries book establishes that the Criamon are objectively wrong about everything, this character is also wrong in these suppositions, but the character doesn't know this and is motivated by these beliefs. The character probably became introduced to the project in some enigmatic Criamon fashion, such as being introduced by an older Criamon magus who claimed to know one of the other magi on the project via a past life experience.
One thing to clarify: this project has not necessarily been announced to the world yet. It's really more in the cabal stage. Consider it more like the Secret Society of Magi Who Want to Raise Atlantis than a project registered with any Tribunal.
Well it has to get out to at least a few people at some point, or nobody will ever know about the project to join up.
My point was really that this is a group of carefully recruited believers. The answer to the question of how to deal with House Tremere might be, "let's wait until they hear about it, and then come up with a plan," rather than inviting in a magus who will tell House Trememe everything at the get go. Yes, eventually everyone will learn about the plan, including House Tremere. But maybe the magi don't want House Tremere to be the first people to learn about the plan.
It makes me wonder, for example, would the Tremere character you're thinking of honestly be able to say that he (or she) could wait to tell House Tremere what's going on until the cat is out of the bag to the rest of the world?
Well, that depends on what the group thinks would be more interesting:
- The character has specialized knowledge that is too good to pass up, so the magus is invited to the project early on, even though they know it's going to be a risk.
- The character is invited to the project much later, once word has already started to get out; the group does its best to "vet" candidates for an idealist and they take this magus knowing that one way or another the Tremere will try to meddle, so this is their grudging attempt to ward that off. In this case my character would be a late arrival to the Atlantis project (but no less dedicated).
- Maybe someone has another idea that would be super-great and I'm happy to work with that.
Some of the political issues for a Tremere finding out early are also relevant for my character if there is a distrust of how the House will respond.
To address that I'm writing my background to be a confirmed transitionalist who wants to do it better which is why his involvement early probably makes a lot of sense. Like getting a lawyer friend involved before you actually need one.
If the Tremere character is written with that in mind; ...well actually all of our characters probably should have clear motivations which make in story sense, then no issue.
We can't also ignore the fact that unless all the lead characters are secretive the info will get out, so we need to buy into that in the initial stages of character design. I'm happy with it, but other players might want a different angle, in which case we bring that character into play later when the secret is out.
How the info is released should be a big discussion. We need to control many levels of politics to do it right. Lobbying, spin control, Comms to mundanes, etc.
So (sorry I've rambled) ... I really like the angle of the Magus with architectural specialist knowledge being approached, for any House, so a Tremere specialist makes sense. It's back to the question - if he will keep the secret, and if his reputation or social connections would allow the project leader to plausibly think it's safe. If so, excellent!
Yes, the whole point is to have a conflict in the character where there is tension between what the character wants (to see this project succeed) and what the House wants (to reap the military and political benefits of having influence over this project and its results). Tremere characters are kinda defined by these sorts of loyalty conflicts, as the House indoctrinates them from an early age to be loyal to the House over any individual desires or allegiances, but since they are still human (more or less) Tremere magi will still have their own agendas, and they must figure out how to balance those demands. That's kinda what I'm looking to do.
It could all end badly -- the House demands that I do something that would hurt the covenant, I refuse, House Tremere declares me persona non grata or, worse still, becomes hostile to the project. But those kinds of Order politics are going to be part of the chronicle anyway, I suspect. Or we might manage to finagle or bluster our way into keeping the rest of House Tremere out of the biz. Depends on how we roll and how tough our Storyguide makes it.
Anyway, like I said before, my goal is not to create more unnecessary grief -- this magus is, like the others, wholly committed to this project. The character simply also happens to come from a House that strongly stresses House loyalty, and is therefore dealing with the personal dilemma of trying to figure out how to bring about the new Atlantis and not make enemies of the rest of the House.
Why would an architectural specialist be approached before raising Atlantis? I mean we don't even know what state the buildings are in, and if it has been occupied by an underwater magic-kin race then having a flambeau to protect our derriers would probably be more critical than an architectural specialist...
Q. Assuming that Level 50 spells are automatically Rituals, or does that kick in at level 55?
Some sagas do it differently (ie. Andorra).
Because historical records about Atlantis (such as they are) are typically from Plato, and say:
"The most famous of them all was the overthrow of the island of Atlantis. This great island lay over against the Pillars of Heracles, in extent greater than Libya and Asia put together, and was the passage to other islands and to a great ocean of which the Mediterranean sea was only the harbour; and within the Pillars the empire of Atlantis reached in Europe to Tyrrhenia and in Libya to Egypt. This mighty power was arrayed against Egypt and Hellas and all the countries bordering on the Mediterranean. Then your city did bravely, and won renown over the whole earth. For at the peril of her own existence, and when the other Hellenes had deserted her, she repelled the invader, and of her own accord gave liberty to all the nations within the Pillars. A little while afterwards there were great earthquakes and floods, and your warrior race all sank into the earth; and the great island of Atlantis also disappeared in the sea. This is the explanation of the shallows which are found in that part of the Atlantic ocean." (Timaeus, sec. 1)
"And now I will speak to you of their adversaries, but first I ought to explain that the Greek names were given to Solon in an Egyptian form, and he enquired their meaning and translated them. His manuscript was left with my grandfather Dropides, and is now in my possession...In the division of the earth Poseidon obtained as his portion the island of Atlantis, and there he begat children whose mother was a mortal. Towards the sea and in the centre of the island there was a very fair and fertile plain, and near the centre, about fifty stadia from the plain, there was a low mountain in which dwelt a man named Evenor and his wife Leucippe, and their daughter Cleito, of whom Poseidon became enamoured. He to secure his love enclosed the mountain with rings or zones varying in size, two of land and three of sea, which his divine power readily enabled him to excavate and fashion, and, as there was no shipping in those days, no man could get into the place. To the interior island he conveyed under the earth springs of water hot and cold, and supplied the land with all things needed for the life of man. Here he begat a family consisting of five pairs of twin male children. The eldest was Atlas, and him he made king of the centre island, while to his twin brother, Eumelus, or Gadeirus, he assigned that part of the country which was nearest the Straits. The other brothers he made chiefs over the rest of the island. And their kingdom extended as far as Egypt and Tyrrhenia. Now Atlas had a fair posterity, and great treasures derived from mines—among them that precious metal orichalcum; and there was abundance of wood, and herds of elephants, and pastures for animals of all kinds, and fragrant herbs, and grasses, and trees bearing fruit. These they used, and employed themselves in constructing their temples, and palaces, and harbours, and docks, in the following manner:—First, they bridged over the zones of sea, and made a way to and from the royal palace which they built in the centre island. This ancient palace was ornamented by successive generations; and they dug a canal which passed through the zones of land from the island to the sea. The zones of earth were surrounded by walls made of stone of divers colours, black and white and red, which they sometimes intermingled for the sake of ornament; and as they quarried they hollowed out beneath the edges of the zones double docks having roofs of rock. The outermost of the walls was coated with brass, the second with tin, and the third, which was the wall of the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum. In the interior of the citadel was a holy temple, dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, and surrounded by an enclosure of gold, and there was Poseidon's own temple, which was covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. The roof was of ivory, adorned with gold and silver and orichalcum, and the rest of the interior was lined with orichalcum. Within was an image of the god standing in a chariot drawn by six winged horses, and touching the roof with his head; around him were a hundred Nereids, riding on dolphins. Outside the temple were placed golden statues of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives; there was an altar too, and there were palaces, corresponding to the greatness and glory both of the kingdom and of the temple." (Critias, Intro)
Now, you don't know what state the island is in, but it is huge, and with materials like "orichalcum" it is almost certain that some of it is intact. Additionally, it is almost certain that there are powerful magical regio (pagan or just mystical). Both of these are the province of a Hermetic architect!
I am, however, getting the feeling that you just don't want me to play, so I'll bow out if that's the case.
What they were and what state they were in are two separate things. I am also referring to the Atlantean magic kin (which I plan to make one as a companion), in terms of references, where they may be decendants of Atlantis having built a sprawling undersea empire, or they may be of the magic realm and basically be fish where some have the ability to assume human form. So if the buildings are intact then likely we will need to deal with a bunch of angry Atlanteans who probably do not appreciate having it raised, where if there are no beings maintaining the city it has likely fallen into ruin.
And I do not have an issue with you playing, I just had some issues that I felt (and I am not the storyteller here) needed to be better thought through instead of shoehorned in.
I agree with that. I don't think that the Tremere or the Jerbiton concepts are unworkable. But they do have a few issues. Really, I think the Tremere idea is a great one. But he'd have to be willing to keep the matter secret from House Tremere until word officially got out. That seems to me what the 'cabal' would require. After that, it strikes me that having a Tremere on board would give all the benefits you cite.
I've also had a request from Quite Possibly a Cat to join. How does the troupe feel about that? Is there room for another, or are we getting full up?
How many do we have right now?