General Table Talk

[The_Fixer]

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@"vortigern"

I just don't see it as being that overarchingly pressing / ominous, for a minor flaw. A minor flaw is not supposed to be that big of a deal. It is supposed to be annoying, and troublesome at times, but not a death sentence waiting to happen. That is 'Dark Secret' or something of the like.
To me a level 3 bad reputation doesn't mean everyone hates you, or everyone thinks you are intrinsically a diabolist waiting to get caught. That is just entirely too oppressive. I suppose I just see this quite differently.

I agree with this. Problem is, you're acting in a way that can be seen as enhancing that bad reputation and the associated fears. Like if someone with a reputation for being a child molester was seen talking about how children could only be educated through physical punishment."

@vortigern

The Titanoi, and Tytalus himself, existed and were recruited into the Order as Goetists and 'then' -some- of them went Diabolic. If Tytalus/Tremere, or Guorna for that matter, were infernalists their magic could not have been integrated into Hermetic Theory by Bonisagus. They would never have been recruited, they would have been targetted en masse by the other Founders. Instead Guorna was recruited/interviewed and then followed by Tytalus/Tremere. Core Hermetic Spirit Magic Guidelines could, arguably, be said to be aspects of their magic that are now integrated into Hermetic Theory. Not Infernalism.

I doubt very much that infernal magic could not have been integrated. The infernal corrupts everything it touches, so maybe all hermetic spirit magic is in fact infernal (it's just that we can't detect it). It is a possibility, an interesting one at that, in some sagas, could be very real. It also explains well how magic could be seen as the work of the devil by the church if some of them have sense holy/unholy.

I just think you're making assumptions here that are not RAW (which, if I may recall you, is more than often deliberately vague on matters like this): Unless Guorna used infernal powers in front of the founders, AND these same founders could detect the infernal (Yeah, right), I can't find any reason for them to have been targeted, even if they were, in fact, corrupt. You're also somewhat defeating your own purpose here: You claim that Goetic Magic is the magic of Tytalus and Guorna. But, By the RAW, this is infernal. No "maybe", no "sometimes", it just is.

So, what have we here?
Either Tytalus used goetic magic, was an infernalist that was never detected (and deception goes a long way with the devil), which means hermetic magic could be in part corrupt, or he didn't use it, and your whole "I'm tytalus heir" thing is wrong.
Either he also had other powers, which were integrated into hermetic magic (which is then non-corrupted), but, by the RAW, you're still the heir to an infernalist, which may have been repentant (say, the evil guorna taught him these, but he renounced evil). Note that the fact that he didn't use Goetic Magic is in part supported by the fact that most of the Goetic Abilities can't be replicated by Hermetic Magic.
Of course, this being marko's saga, he decided (which, IMO, is a grevious error) that at least Command can non-infernal, in which case you can be the heir to a Goetic non-infernal tytalus. It's just not RAW, nor, given your infamous master, can you expect people to say "Ok, everything's cool". You can have your preferences, which, in marko's saga, MAY be true, you just can't present them as true.

@vortigern

Then, as before, note that the lineage of Kalliste, also practicing Titanoi of the original school of training ( Goetists ), were cleared by the Qs of Diabolism and were thereby the only ones to survive the subsequent purge. Read, once again, Not Infernalists. The plain 'Hermetic Theurgist' types are not on the scene until the House attempts to 'reconstruct' the Titanoi and recruits people from other schools of theurgic training to bolster up the numbers and they supplant the old core of Goetic Titanoi. The new school of thought is 'mainstream' Titanoi now, imported in this process. The whole idea of the character of Ludo was an originalist Titanoi.

Then, by the RAW, you should have stuck to Summon. There's NOTHING in the RAW that states that Tytalus used the whole Summoning / Commanding / Binding / Ablating thingie. In fact, still by RAW, if he used these, he was in infernalist, as, still by raw, only commanding can be magical (albeit tainted).
This could be different in Marko's saga, there's no problem with that, but I'm just incomfortable with you presenting as truth what is just your opinion on things, especially as the raw says otherwise: Either he used Goetic Arts and he was an infernalist, or he didn't (save possibly for Commanding).

Note, though, that there's nothing to say that Tytalus's original magic (save some suspicons linked to guorna the fetid) were the Infernal Goetic Arts: They could just as well have been Sihr , or an european equivalent.

@vortigern

The taint I selected that flaw to represent is the fear in the order that Goetists/Titanoi, are 'predisposed' towards such infernal leanings, IMO. That if a purge can be necessary once, it could be necessary again, and you could have little warning as to when/why etc. Perhaps 'some' do genuinely not want people to practice the Titanoi lineage's magic, as they view it as too dangerous. However, IMO, they would know better than to call it a form of intrinsic infernalism/diabolism. Or for the mainstream to think that any given individual espousing it is intrinsically also covorting with malign forces. I don't say that there wouldn't be some that would think exactly that, but I do not think it would be the overarching perspective or that it would be quite such a 'hair trigger' kind of situation.

This, I understand.
2 questions, then: Why didn't you do a "normal" Tytalan goetist, using the Hermetic Arts? Or why didn't you just took Summoning? After all, saying someone is a goeticist doens't mean he uses theses powers at all, as is showed by the Tytalus chapter. Whatever you may say, by the RAW, people who view practicers of Commanding / Binding / Ablating as infernalists ARE right, and even Summoning, being tainted, means you can very well be viewed as such.

@vortigern

My vote regarding this would be for the ( common I believe ) house rule that magic resistance only blocks effects/modifiers that are magical. i.e. the dot would disappear while the sword is within the boundary of MR. Or, if the sword were on fire, mechanically the fire would deal no additional damage unless the effect penetrated. But the sword, assuming it is normal/nonmagical, is not impeded by MR alone... for that you need a ward.

Ok, now, you're gonna believe I'm picking on you Thing is, this was considered in the testing, and discarded. Because it means MR doesn't block magic. It cancels it. Which means that, for exemple, you could temporarily cancel a transforming spell or curse by bringing someone under MR. Unless suddenly he can't enter? But then, why could the sword? This brings all kind of problems (I don't remember clearly, maybe it was in the design notes). I prefer the HR that MR blocks active magics, so that, if you cancel your fire, the sword can penetrate. Or else, a magically sharpened sword (which is sharp, just magically so) would become blunt when striking at someone, then sharp again when striking another, then... Likewise, a Magus parma would cancel a magical bridge under him... You get the idea.
Your idea may be okayed with fire and other immaterial things (The fire/light... is blocked outside, but the sword isn't bound to it, and thus can enter), but that's more a convenient exception (that I like)
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@"ladyphoenix"

Either here or in its own thread, this is going to have to be discussed because I thought it was settled: a magical focus only applies to casting a spell or labwork. Casting a spell has two arts and the lower of the two is doubled.

When you substitute, you are allowed to use the one score in place of the other but it is not suddenly spell casting or labwork in the magical focus sense.

There are MULTIPLE people here that are very firm about this. I have seen nothing that backs the alternatives as in Marko saying ""we are making an exception"" or pointing to rules and page numbers for where it is allowed.

Not the first time we say this, not the last either, I fear. But I agree with your every word.

@"Vortigern"

I, Marko, and Jarkman had this out with Fixer a long time ago. I've continued playing with ( using ) Ludo's focus in his Goetia since then, with what seemed to me to be the apparent support of the ASG and Jarkman etc. To me this seemed resolved already. It seems inappropriatte to keep attempting to rehash this issue.

And while you can continue asserting your opinion on the matter, by all means, continueing to state you are right and I am wrong without addressing any points that are made just seems a bit churlish. Your statements do not coincide with the RAW as plainly written and put forth in my previous posts on this subject.

WHAT????????????????????
Okay…
Maybe we talked about this with Marko and Jarkman. Really, I don't remenber this, although I do remember our previous conversations about this with Marko and LadyP.

What I do remember about these is that Marko okeyed you to use Commanding as a non-infernal ability.

What I don't remember is him allowing you to use your focus for this.

What I certainly DON'T remember is me agreeing with you on this. If I did, I was surely drunk.

What I'd be curious to read is how you see LadyP's statements as not RAW. If you want, I'll copy-paste the focus description for you.

Above all, what I'd like to know, though, is this:
I've seen you, from time to time, talk about the importance of the story over mechanics. Yet, I've never seen you so adamant as when defending, not your character concept (A summoner, a goetist, whatever), which no one questionned, but your character's power, both in magnitude and in breadth.
What you're defending, in fact, is to max out 2 arts in order to have both access to any TeFo combination, with your "focus" applying everytime. Like, the flying horses-spirit able to become coprporeal that you invoke on the fly because you need them than was a fine touch.
And that's without considering that you also want this to become (mostly) your MR (And I agree, you've every right to do so under Commanding), and the list goes on.
To that goal, despite repeated criticism and opposition, you've consitently either abused, tried to break, or broken the rules, never conceding anything.
Which, unless I was wrong and you character concept is not "A summoner", but rather "A guy that, without having paid for it in any fashion, has access to any TeFo combination and also some non-hermetic powers, up to at the least lvl 60", means one thing in my book: Munchkinism, far above story.

I've seen this before. Guys that are good, sometimes really good, at roleplay, writing and descriptions, and use it to coax the GM into having an uber-character, far superior to other PCs, without this having been discussed and agreed by the troupe.

I've said it before, I have nothing against high-powered games, both as a player and DM (I ran Amber for 10 years. One PC became co-ruler of the universe. Another became what is a god to amberites). But I just can't stand what you're trying to do. Moreso, when I see you implying that I agreed with your applying of the focus… It is just wrong, and makes me angry to no bounds.
Which is a waste of time (of which I have little already) and energy. Which means I'm quitting, leaving you free to tell the tales of Ludo, the uber spirit master who summon and bind gods at breakfeast while his pathetic sodales stand in awe.

@"Vortigern"

16 hour Car Trips allow for much re-reading of the Hedge Magic book, so hooray? It states that Hermetic Virtues can be taken by anyone with the Gift. Secondly the Virtues List for the Gruagach, Vitkr and Learned Magician includes Magical Focus. Keep in mind that those are just suggested Virtues anyway, not a comprehensive listing.

This would seem to indicate that Magical Foci are not specific to the Order and should be compatible with any Methods / Powers from other traditions ( Including single Arts IE Goetia, Rune Magic etc ). So I for one have no issue with his Focus applying to his Goetic Arts.

Yes and no. They don't say every hermetic virtue is applicable. It states that not every virtue is applicable, and that this'll have to be decided by the troupe. These are general guidelines, devised for those hedge traditions you'll create, or the virtues they didn't list.

More importantly, about foci, you'll note that some described traditions have them, and some don't, while they're really trying to provide exemples of virtues and flaws applicable to theses traditions, especially as this'll serve as guidelines for your own traditions.
You'll thus note that Elementalists, which are a weaker form of Goetic Magic, don't have such a focus.

Why? To me, there are 2 reasons for this:
The first is that they don't use the 2-arts combo to produce a variety of effects, depending on the combo (and before you talk about vikti, note that non-personnal effects, which use method 2, require 2 runes, the second changing with the target. Moreso, there's a whole paragraph dedicated to explain them, since they detract from core rules. But I'd guess you'd prefer the clarified exception to the core rules to be the rule). Which is something the elementalists, or goetic magic, don't do. After all, this is the RAW about foci: You combine 2 arts, and doubles the lowest of the two.
The second, IMO, is simply power: Hermetic magic is supposed to be more powerful, while non-hermetic magic is supposed to be able to do things hermetics can't. Elementalism is already better at summoning (and all) than hermetic magic (IIRC, a hermetic magus with 20 in Re AND Vim AND a focus summons slightly less well than an elementalist without one and 20 in his summoning ability). Having a focus makes things worse. And this is nothing compared to Goetic Magic.

Or else, I invite you two to do a normal, core, hermetic summoner, whithout any non-hermetic virtue.

@GIJoo

since the tradition of Goetia was a part of the two of the Founder's tradition

You're saying that, by the RAW, Tytalus and Tremere were infernalists, instead of just "guys who summon dark spirits"? IIRC, there is nothing to prove their powers were the Goetic Abilities, and even then, that they had anything else than Tainted Magical Summoning.
Just for the fun, I'd also like to point you to these 2 posts, albeit I'm sure you both already know that (or else, you wouldn't have chosen these powers, nor would you be trying so much to make them even more powerful while non-infernal): Spirit Magic - #5 by The_Fixer

@Vortigern

The RAW plainly states that hermetic virtues are for anyone with the Gift

Then again, NO. It states that they CAN be applied, but that not every virtue will be applicable to every tradition. Don't try to make the bookds say what they don't say. And I strongly believe that, if some traditions haven't a focus listed, it's specifically because it should'nt apply. If you look at them under the light of Core rules, it's pretty clear why.

But I guess you're the type to say that, since it isn't forbidden, it's perfectly fine and normal to create a demonic child with Divine Methods and Powers, which he uses besides his Maleficia, while also boasting his Pagan flaw besides of his True Faith and Hate of God...

@Vortigern

But acting as if I am doing something against RAW, to me, is groundless. The examples are there.

You mean the exemples of traditions which uses 2 arts in conjonction to produces a variety of effects depending on the combination, with the specifically clarified exception of Vikti who, sometimes, only use 1 rune for a pretty limited effect? While the tradition which is a WEAKER form of your powers has no listed focus as its virtues?

But let's compare to the vikti, yes. What you're asking is similar to them saying "I want a MMF in Runes, which shall apply to all my magic".
A "rune" focus wouldn't even be minor for an hermetic magus. Yet, it encompasses the entirety of the Vikti's magic, like 1 minor focus/rune.
Likewise...

Anyway. Go, and play God. You're just disgusting me too much, I have no further desire to abide with this.