General Table Talk

I, Marko, and Jarkman had this out with Fixer a long time ago. I've continued playing with ( using ) Ludo's focus in his Goetia since then, with what seemed to me to be the apparent support of the ASG and Jarkman etc. To me this seemed resolved already. It seems inappropriatte to keep attempting to rehash this issue.

And while you can continue asserting your opinion on the matter, by all means, continueing to state you are right and I am wrong without addressing any points that are made just seems a bit churlish. Your statements do not coincide with the RAW as plainly written and put forth in my previous posts on this subject.

16 hour Car Trips allow for much re-reading of the Hedge Magic book, so hooray? It states that Hermetic Virtues can be taken by anyone with the Gift. Secondly the Virtues List for the Gruagach, Vitkr and Learned Magician includes Magical Focus. Keep in mind that those are just suggested Virtues anyway, not a comprehensive listing.

This would seem to indicate that Magical Foci are not specific to the Order and should be compatible with any Methods / Powers from other traditions ( Including single Arts IE Goetia, Rune Magic etc ). So I for one have no issue with his Focus applying to his Goetic Arts.

I don't agree but if they applied to the just the geotic arts that is one thing. He is applying it to his hermetic spell casting, hermetic labwork AND to use in the geotic arts because he has virtue that lets him substitute vim score (replacing his level 1 with his 20 rego or 20 vim is pushing it but he is trying to apply the focus as well for adding 40).

I stand firm on the focus not applying in this case.

Well a Magical Focus is just that, Magical ( IE not just Hermetic Magic or just Goetia, as it says nowhere that you must pick a 'tradition' of Magic for it to apply to ) so again, I don't have an issue. Also, since the tradition of Goetia was a part of the two of the Founder's tradition, then it's a logical to assume it was integrated into the Order's Magic ( Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't that where the Hermetic Spirit Mojo comes from? Just a watered down version of Goetia? ). So it makes perfect sense to me that he be allowed to substitute his Rego and Vim and then apply a focus, especially when he has blown two Virtues on it.

Math wise, it's really not that far off from what anyone with a Greater Focus / Potent Magic can achieve ( Provided they specialize as much as Ludo ), so I guess that's why I don't really see an issue with all this.

Indeed. The RAW plainly states that hermetic virtues are for anyone with the Gift, in more than one place. And there are at least those three different examples in the RAW of hedge traditions with explicitly stated access to magical foci, and the math applying just fine to single arts and doubling them. If people disagree with the RAW, and don't like it... and want to see it house ruled, that is one thing. But acting as if I am doing something against RAW, to me, is groundless. The examples are there.

And, Marko, there is another, better, reason why the Vitkir are high on the 'Kill On Sight' list, and it isn't their Magical Foci. It is the 'True Change' nature of their Rune Magic, which lets them effectively bypass Parma Magica with much of their battle mojo. This is a big no no, for people that are supposed to be the little people, if you follow my thinking. True Change +30 damage fire on your sword and/or spear etc, is a big deal. Magical Focus, not so much. Anybody that can ignore Parma, just like anybody that learns Parma that isn't supposed to, needs to find themselves dead for the safety of the Order... whether they were minding their own business or not in the Ash Guild type view.

"

I agree with this. Problem is, you're acting in a way that can be seen as enhancing that bad reputation and the associated fears. Like if someone with a reputation for being a child molester was seen talking about how children could only be educated through physical punishment."

I doubt very much that infernal magic could not have been integrated. The infernal corrupts everything it touches, so maybe all hermetic spirit magic is in fact infernal (it's just that we can't detect it). It is a possibility, an interesting one at that, in some sagas, could be very real. It also explains well how magic could be seen as the work of the devil by the church if some of them have sense holy/unholy.

I just think you're making assumptions here that are not RAW (which, if I may recall you, is more than often deliberately vague on matters like this): Unless Guorna used infernal powers in front of the founders, AND these same founders could detect the infernal (Yeah, right), I can't find any reason for them to have been targeted, even if they were, in fact, corrupt. You're also somewhat defeating your own purpose here: You claim that Goetic Magic is the magic of Tytalus and Guorna. But, By the RAW, this is infernal. No "maybe", no "sometimes", it just is.

So, what have we here?
Either Tytalus used goetic magic, was an infernalist that was never detected (and deception goes a long way with the devil), which means hermetic magic could be in part corrupt, or he didn't use it, and your whole "I'm tytalus heir" thing is wrong.
Either he also had other powers, which were integrated into hermetic magic (which is then non-corrupted), but, by the RAW, you're still the heir to an infernalist, which may have been repentant (say, the evil guorna taught him these, but he renounced evil). Note that the fact that he didn't use Goetic Magic is in part supported by the fact that most of the Goetic Abilities can't be replicated by Hermetic Magic.
Of course, this being marko's saga, he decided (which, IMO, is a grevious error) that at least Command can non-infernal, in which case you can be the heir to a Goetic non-infernal tytalus. It's just not RAW, nor, given your infamous master, can you expect people to say "Ok, everything's cool". You can have your preferences, which, in marko's saga, MAY be true, you just can't present them as true.

Then, by the RAW, you should have stuck to Summon. There's NOTHING in the RAW that states that Tytalus used the whole Summoning / Commanding / Binding / Ablating thingie. In fact, still by RAW, if he used these, he was in infernalist, as, still by raw, only commanding can be magical (albeit tainted).
This could be different in Marko's saga, there's no problem with that, but I'm just incomfortable with you presenting as truth what is just your opinion on things, especially as the raw says otherwise: Either he used Goetic Arts and he was an infernalist, or he didn't (save possibly for Commanding).

Note, though, that there's nothing to say that Tytalus's original magic (save some suspicons linked to guorna the fetid) were the Infernal Goetic Arts: They could just as well have been Sihr , or an european equivalent.

This, I understand.
2 questions, then: Why didn't you do a "normal" Tytalan goetist, using the Hermetic Arts? Or why didn't you just took Summoning? After all, saying someone is a goeticist doens't mean he uses theses powers at all, as is showed by the Tytalus chapter. Whatever you may say, by the RAW, people who view practicers of Commanding / Binding / Ablating as infernalists ARE right, and even Summoning, being tainted, means you can very well be viewed as such.

Ok, now, you're gonna believe I'm picking on you :laughing: Thing is, this was considered in the testing, and discarded. Because it means MR doesn't block magic. It cancels it. Which means that, for exemple, you could temporarily cancel a transforming spell or curse by bringing someone under MR. Unless suddenly he can't enter? But then, why could the sword? This brings all kind of problems (I don't remember clearly, maybe it was in the design notes). I prefer the HR that MR blocks active magics, so that, if you cancel your fire, the sword can penetrate. Or else, a magically sharpened sword (which is sharp, just magically so) would become blunt when striking at someone, then sharp again when striking another, then... Likewise, a Magus parma would cancel a magical bridge under him... You get the idea.
Your idea may be okayed with fire and other immaterial things (The fire/light... is blocked outside, but the sword isn't bound to it, and thus can enter), but that's more a convenient exception (that I like)
"

Not the first time we say this, not the last either, I fear. But I agree with your every word.

WHAT????????????????????
Okay…
Maybe we talked about this with Marko and Jarkman. Really, I don't remenber this, although I do remember our previous conversations about this with Marko and LadyP.

What I do remember about these is that Marko okeyed you to use Commanding as a non-infernal ability.

What I don't remember is him allowing you to use your focus for this.

What I certainly DON'T remember is me agreeing with you on this. If I did, I was surely drunk.

What I'd be curious to read is how you see LadyP's statements as not RAW. If you want, I'll copy-paste the focus description for you.

Above all, what I'd like to know, though, is this:
I've seen you, from time to time, talk about the importance of the story over mechanics. Yet, I've never seen you so adamant as when defending, not your character concept (A summoner, a goetist, whatever), which no one questionned, but your character's power, both in magnitude and in breadth.
What you're defending, in fact, is to max out 2 arts in order to have both access to any TeFo combination, with your "focus" applying everytime. Like, the flying horses-spirit able to become coprporeal that you invoke on the fly because you need them than was a fine touch.
And that's without considering that you also want this to become (mostly) your MR (And I agree, you've every right to do so under Commanding), and the list goes on.
To that goal, despite repeated criticism and opposition, you've consitently either abused, tried to break, or broken the rules, never conceding anything.
Which, unless I was wrong and you character concept is not "A summoner", but rather "A guy that, without having paid for it in any fashion, has access to any TeFo combination and also some non-hermetic powers, up to at the least lvl 60", means one thing in my book: Munchkinism, far above story.

I've seen this before. Guys that are good, sometimes really good, at roleplay, writing and descriptions, and use it to coax the GM into having an uber-character, far superior to other PCs, without this having been discussed and agreed by the troupe.

I've said it before, I have nothing against high-powered games, both as a player and DM (I ran Amber for 10 years. One PC became co-ruler of the universe. Another became what is a god to amberites). But I just can't stand what you're trying to do. Moreso, when I see you implying that I agreed with your applying of the focus… It is just wrong, and makes me angry to no bounds.
Which is a waste of time (of which I have little already) and energy. Which means I'm quitting, leaving you free to tell the tales of Ludo, the uber spirit master who summon and bind gods at breakfeast while his pathetic sodales stand in awe.

Yes and no. They don't say every hermetic virtue is applicable. It states that not every virtue is applicable, and that this'll have to be decided by the troupe. These are general guidelines, devised for those hedge traditions you'll create, or the virtues they didn't list.

More importantly, about foci, you'll note that some described traditions have them, and some don't, while they're really trying to provide exemples of virtues and flaws applicable to theses traditions, especially as this'll serve as guidelines for your own traditions.
You'll thus note that Elementalists, which are a weaker form of Goetic Magic, don't have such a focus.

Why? To me, there are 2 reasons for this:
The first is that they don't use the 2-arts combo to produce a variety of effects, depending on the combo (and before you talk about vikti, note that non-personnal effects, which use method 2, require 2 runes, the second changing with the target. Moreso, there's a whole paragraph dedicated to explain them, since they detract from core rules. But I'd guess you'd prefer the clarified exception to the core rules to be the rule). Which is something the elementalists, or goetic magic, don't do. After all, this is the RAW about foci: You combine 2 arts, and doubles the lowest of the two.
The second, IMO, is simply power: Hermetic magic is supposed to be more powerful, while non-hermetic magic is supposed to be able to do things hermetics can't. Elementalism is already better at summoning (and all) than hermetic magic (IIRC, a hermetic magus with 20 in Re AND Vim AND a focus summons slightly less well than an elementalist without one and 20 in his summoning ability). Having a focus makes things worse. And this is nothing compared to Goetic Magic.

Or else, I invite you two to do a normal, core, hermetic summoner, whithout any non-hermetic virtue.

You're saying that, by the RAW, Tytalus and Tremere were infernalists, instead of just "guys who summon dark spirits"? IIRC, there is nothing to prove their powers were the Goetic Abilities, and even then, that they had anything else than Tainted Magical Summoning.
Just for the fun, I'd also like to point you to these 2 posts, albeit I'm sure you both already know that (or else, you wouldn't have chosen these powers, nor would you be trying so much to make them even more powerful while non-infernal): Spirit Magic - #5 by The_Fixer

Then again, NO. It states that they CAN be applied, but that not every virtue will be applicable to every tradition. Don't try to make the bookds say what they don't say. And I strongly believe that, if some traditions haven't a focus listed, it's specifically because it should'nt apply. If you look at them under the light of Core rules, it's pretty clear why.

But I guess you're the type to say that, since it isn't forbidden, it's perfectly fine and normal to create a demonic child with Divine Methods and Powers, which he uses besides his Maleficia, while also boasting his Pagan flaw besides of his True Faith and Hate of God...

You mean the exemples of traditions which uses 2 arts in conjonction to produces a variety of effects depending on the combination, with the specifically clarified exception of Vikti who, sometimes, only use 1 rune for a pretty limited effect? While the tradition which is a WEAKER form of your powers has no listed focus as its virtues?

But let's compare to the vikti, yes. What you're asking is similar to them saying "I want a MMF in Runes, which shall apply to all my magic".
A "rune" focus wouldn't even be minor for an hermetic magus. Yet, it encompasses the entirety of the Vikti's magic, like 1 minor focus/rune.
Likewise...

Anyway. Go, and play God. You're just disgusting me too much, I have no further desire to abide with this.

Let me put it in Plainer terms. Octavian, Myself, Fixer have all CLEARLY spoken against it. Marko has already settled that the focus does not apply to your Goetia use of the arts. That you have found an ally in GI Joe does not reopen the issue that was already settled.

Ability to substitute a score does not mean you are truly using that score. That magical focuses for hermetic magic do not now apply to Geotic magical uses.

Explicit exceptions are not global exceptions.

putting all your XP into two arts and then abusing spirit rules to just summon spirits that can do things for every technique and form is not putting story over stats. It is not trying to build a cooperative story, it is not trying to work with other players. It is trying to make yourself the god of the story.

Marko admits to messing up with the horses to bring people back to covenant that one time. It was a mistake that he did to move the story along quickly but he did not mean to set a precedent for you to ever use again.

You are playing a character with infernal powers who gives off infernal taint that is mostly undetectable because of your high magic resistance to the weakness of sense holy/unholy. The question is not should you be marched but how soon are you caught to be marched. Any spirit that you don't see that sees what you are doing can probably report you to the magi of the castle and the hunt begins. Hello Metron 2.

I am at a loss and indeed feeling creatively drained over all of this. The end result for me is that it is draining away all of the fun from this game.

I am not someone who responds well to emotional vitriol/drama or bluster as a persuasive method. In fact it tends to make me react negatively.

As to my being 'most engaged' not with story but with 'defending my character's depth and breadth of power' and/or referring to me in a personally insulting manner as if I am 'King of the Munchkins' and not in fact a story oriented person... it all in all makes it seem to me as if you are taking this debate ( or what should have been a debate ) out of the realm of discussing rules and facts and the game and into your emotional drama BS concerning how you 'feel' about the game, and personal attacks on myself.

Poor behavior on your part.

I've made consistent efforts to try and be diplomatic and indeed to try and get Dimir Taar/You involved with Ludovico, or indeed several other characters as well. This is clearly a part of my 'desire' to have Ludovico be doing his own thing and the centerpeice of his own plotline, and not viewing group interaction or group story as important.

I've posited my position on all the rules issues here over and over again and not received anything much in the way of a real analysis or counterpoint to the examples in the RAW that I have put forth. Pretty much your argument ammounts to 'I don't like it.'. Which is fine. If you want to call a vote of the troupe and make or adjust house rules, feel free. It is your right as a troupe member. I just don't appreciatte your tone or insulting manner, or what seemed to me to be a disregard for the prior discussions on the matter.

I did not imply that you 'agreed' to anything. Perhaps this is language barrier in action. I said we had discussed it before and I had felt/assumed that it was resolved. This is true. Whether you even remember the conversation, or felt it was even resolved at all on your end is something I can't speak for. I suppose there was a lack of resolution ( or perhaps merely lack of 'acceptable' resolution, by appearances ) on your end of things. There was no implication about a change of opinion on your part.

And ... we have covered, at length, that we view Ars Goetia and their 'taint' or indeed even power level in general vastly differently. Bringing that up over and over again doesn't seem to have acheived anything for either one of us. It is plain we are not going to convince each other. I just wish you could contain yourself and not resort to rudeness in an attempt to get your way. As I said previously, I rarely react well to such things. Today however I'm just feeling lacking in motivation to even attempt a more detailed or 'point by point' response.

?

A statement with seemingly little regard for the history of this issue being, IMV, discussed and handled originally when I was creating the character. As I have been at pains to point out, over and over again, recently. i.e. I am not reopening an old issue, you lot are. An issue that was handled months prior to you joining the game and creating Ameline, when I first made Ludovico.

As has already been established, IMO, while you may or may not be correct on your hairsplitting on the first point here ( I think you are not, but that is neither here nor there. ) you are incorrect on the second by RAW. Magical Foci are plainly in the RAW available to hedgie types. Some people, obviously, don't like this idea... but I do not find verbage in the RAW to support such a position. I am not inherently hostile to that view, but I do take issue with positing it as RAW, since I don't think it is.

Which is at point actually since IMV we are not discussing 'exceptions' at all, as this 'general rule' that you seem to be trying to adhere to about hermetic virtues in general and magical foci in particular appears to be base in a (pre?/mis?)-conception regarding the RAW rather than the RAW itself... as GIJoo and I have gone to great pains to illustrate already.

The relative power/efficacy of summoning vs. other methods of trying to build a strong character has been discussed before as well, but if you desire I am not averse to discussing it again. I can summarize however my view.

Summoning scales up in general capability and flexibility faster than a lot of other areas of specialty. It is more generally applicable due to the ability to summon servants that can/could bring more tailored abilities/powers to bear on a situation. In general it is the Art of 'Call A Friend', and your Friend can know or do just about anything. ( Limits do apply, read the fine print Noble Magus. )

Anyway. Yes. These things you are fixating on are, in general, all quite true. But you aren't addressing the downsides. Ah? Yes. There are those as well, not just in the nebulous realm of RP and you always trying to label Ludovico an infernalist and insist he has infernal powers despite the fact that all of his powers are magic realm aligned.

Simply put Summoners hit a glass ceiling of exactly how powerful they can be 'on their own' as it were. That is the point where their penetration/ability to summon/command spirits hits the threshold where the only way to continue scaling up to bigger things is to start summoning Daimons. This has several effects.

Firstly, to refocus slightly, this means that the spellcasting totals of the Summoner are only indirectly being applied to the 'problem at hand'. This means that no matter how big the penetration a Summoner might have with their Summoning 'stuff', if they are using a might 30 or 40 spirit to solve a problem then the maximum penetration they are going get out of that spirit is generally 30 or 40, their might score. Exceptions exist, but by and large the might of the spirit is going to be it, and then usually not even that. So in essence, it is a bit like playing a spont. magic caster. You trade penetration and direct power with an area of focus for general flexibility.

And then... your ability as a Summoner to 'scale up' beyond that Daimon threshold means you encounter a breed of spirits that now you -have- to bargain with and generally 'pay' for services rendered. Likely in Vis. Which means, sure, you can theoretically summon the Might 75 uber spirit. The numbers are there, you could go and learn a name and do horoscopes and whatnot and whip up 'Melchior, Duke of the Seelie Court and Sovereign Lord of the Winds of the North' ... but, then what? What do you have that you can genuinely offer such an astounding Power ( emphasis on the capital P. ) for it to do what you want? Generally the easiest answer is, again, Vis. But otherwise you are at more general and nebulous negotiation to get what you want.

Which means the upper scale abilities of the Summoner are, while potentially far more impressive, far less easy to use and more expensive than the lower scale abilities... but the lower scale abilities have a definitive cap on their abilities to apply to problems.

What does it matter if you can achieve a 90+ penetration with a spell to control a spirit? That isn't -useful- beyond a certain point. Because spirits beyond a certain might score are going to be Daimons and that means uncontrollable in general. You hit that glass ceiling as it were.

When I designed Ludovico I intentionally aimed him at already being at this threshold. i.e. I wanted him to be 'done' if you will with the regular bit of summoning and ready to start broadening out as a Magus, to pursue more than just Summoning without feeling like he was losing focus, so to speak, much by doing so.

As I said... we disagree. And you constantly characterize Ludovico as an infernalist and/or someone with infernal powers. Aside from Chthonic Magic this isn't so. His powers are all magic realm aligned.

Honestly if Chthonic Magic is such a concern I really wouldn't mind dropping it to a minor version and losing it's ability to invoke and create a 'magical focus' like effect, and picking up two other points of minor virtues to replace the difference.

I was not so much interested in the applicability of that focus as the realm attunement, when I made Ludovico.

And while I'm at it...

Now, you understand my feelings and why I left. This was useless and counter-productive.

As I answered the sodales who PMed me, I certainly didn't want to hold you hostage and use my departure as a way to force you or marko. If you'd made the effort to understand, I could have reconsidered, but I also knew you wouldn't.

Well, thing is:

Have these discussions been about your character concept? No
Have they been about your character's breadth and depth of power? Yes.

To be quick, character concept = story. Character power = munchkinism, whether you realize it or not.

And when you PMed me,didn't I answer you? I even took the time to do it in character in my first reply. So what's the problem?

The fact that you say something doesn't make it true.

But let's state it AGAIN, as both me and others have done time and time again

Major Magical Focus (Ars p 45) Your magic is much more potent in a fairly limited area, such as weather, necromancy, birds, or emotions. This area should be smaller than a single Art, but may be spread over several Arts (...) When you cast a spell or generate a Lab Total within your focus, add the lowest applicable Art score twice. If a spell has requisites, the lowest applicable score may be one of the requisites, rather than one of the primary Arts
How does any of this apply to you? From the fairly limited area (Since you use it for any te/fo combo), to the smaller than a single art (IIRC, Erik Dahl stated that the goetic arts shoud be Accelerated Abilities, it's just that these didn't exist at the time. Nut eevn considering these to be Arts, you're still out there, since you'd be encompassing 4 entire "arts"), to you casting a spell or generating a Lab Total, or even having a lowest applicable art?

Now, you've used Hedge Magic as an excuse, saying that any hermetic virtue is applicable to any non-hermetic tradition.
It could be argued that this is only true for Magic-Based powers, but let's that slip, as it's irrelevant and, for exemple, I could almost see a focus be applicable to Methods and Powers, holy or not (Note that these obey one of the common forms for arts, which is to be used in pairs to produce different effects based on the pair).

Yet, you've continually chosen to ignore what I was saying to you, namely HM p 12, Hermetic Virtues and Flaws: A hedge wizard who has the gift may (like any Gifted Character) be assigned Hermetic Virtues and Flaws during Character generation. A few make little sense to be assigned to some hedge wizards, so the storyguide should be consulted. For exemple, an Affinity with an Art is not suitable if the hedge tradition does not have hedge Arts. The traditions in this book indicate which Hermetic Virtues and Flaws are suitable for these hedge traditions.
Elementalists, which are very close (only weaker) to Goeticists, have no Focus in their list of suitable hermetic v/f, while other traditions (Which, IIRC, at least mostly follow the Focus rules) have them specifically listed.
You've stated that you find nothing that prohibits them to have a focus. Fine. This is your right, this may even be discussed by the troupe as a possibility (like the above focus for method and powers), but it's nothing else that your opinion, as the books make this very clear exception for them (probably because, due to the focus rules, this "makes little sense"). So please, don't say this is about my preferences, when this is all about yours.

You chose to ignore this. Fine. I no longer care. Really. Apply it all. Just don't make false claims.

Yup, what I remember is a lack of resolution, save for the horses thingie, where marko admitted he should have been more vigilant.

You misunderstood me.

I agree that this is useless. This is what I stated, after all. Useless and endless. I think you'll agree that this is a waste of time, too, especially as I had so little to offer to andorra. I'd add a waste of energy.
Which is why I am leaving.
This is absolutely NOT an attempt to get things my way, although I feared you'd take it like that. I especially wouldn't like Marko to make a move and rule against you, not because he thinks that you're wrong, but to please me and/or keep me as a player. This'd be... well, wrong.

What seems increasingly clear to me in this 'discussion' is that this is not genuinely a discussion about rules, the applicability of virtues in particular, or indeed anything related to 'hedge magic' or 'Goetia' etc. Rather the statements that people are making seem to more revolve around power level and a desire to see Ludovico 'nerfed' as it were. Whereas I was maintaining a position based purely on my view of the RAW.

I have come to think this entire discussion could have had a vastly different tenor if people had, instead of trying to formulate shoddy rules pretexts for their desires, simply come forward and plainly/directly expressed their desire to nerf Ludovico.

The applicability of magical foci to hedge magic completely aside, I think this is the central issue in all of this completely ridiculous hassle.

Perhaps it is the direct military style communicator in me, however when someone says that they object to something on a given pretext ( rules/RAW etc. ) then to me the discussion is -about- those rules, intepreting them, and what the 'correct' view of them should be. Discussing that is one thing. Instead now people are saying things completely unrelated to the rules at all, that by defending my position I am trying to make Ludovico overly stupendously powerful etc. and am thus a munchkin powergamer by default etc. etc. etc.

These recent 'outbursts' make it plain to me that this was what was most central to people's thinking to begin with. I am not unreceptive to discussions of power level in the game and the place/context of my character within that. I would just however find it much more appealing if we could discuss that directly rather than contrived rules arguments to acheive an end.


In regards to power level and the game etc.

At this point I feel obliged to point out that Marko has repetitively been saying that he is aiming for a high power game of Ars Magica. This means high powered characters. I, unabashedly, aimed to please with my build.

Looking at recent events in the game, bluntly, many of the other charactes in the game do not fit this mold. Some are indeed on the weak side, rather simply falling short of 'high powered'.

This appears to have established a 'power context' in the game that is vastly different than that sought by the ASG and that I created my character to fit in with. Twenty year post gauntlet build characters that have trouble dealing with Might 15 enemies due to -penetration- with their mainline spells are not 'High Power' builds, to be plainly honest.

So my counter question, instead, to the people saying Ludovico is overpowered is this.

What is the desired power level of the game if it is not the 'High Power' standard that our ASG has set? What desired medium or context is it that we wish to achieve, and how and why, in specific terms, do you think Ludo does not fit the mold and what changes are sought to make it so without distorting the context of the RAW as it applies to the whole game?

I should point out that I actually agree with Vortigern's interpretation of RAW and how Foci are applied. My ruling against him, as I have stated, was only for the comfort of other players. I view it as a Troupe HR. But by strict RAW, I think he is in the right.
I should also point out that inhibiting his use of the Focus discourages him from using Chthonic Magic, which slows down my efforts to corrupt him.

He can use Cthonic magic with his hermetic magic which means totals of 80+stamina+aura for casting hermetic magics about spirits. In one to two season, he can invent a level 50 ward against spirit. 3 Seasons for a level 60-65 spirit magic spell (admittedly over 50 takes vis but even level 50 does a lot, esp with 30+ penetration before multipliers).

Yes but to use Cthonic Magic would infernally taint his spell that he was making ( IMO ) something that he seems to have gone to great lengths to avoid. How many times has he even used Cthonic? Like.. once? As stated before, it seems like he's got the option ( and Marko keeps nudging him towards Evil and what have you ) but he rarely if ever seems to use it. Though Cthonic Magic in and of itself is hardly evil. Something you might find interesting LadyP, the description of Cthonic Magic!

"Some kind of Magi practice a type of magic that is peripherally associated with the Infernal realm because of its negativity, though it is not actually diabolic. This low magic, or cthonic magic is more associated with the gods of the underworld and spirits of the night than the servants of Hell. Such beings are are not necessarily evil, but they have a dark reputation and are often conflated with demons in legends."

It goes on, but I think ya get the idea? From what I've read it makes perfect sense for him to have this, and no I honestly don't think that this makes him automatically a Diabolist. I mean Guorna was supposed to be in contact with the Titans and other spirits of the underworld no? And if that's the tradition Ludo is trying to stick to... again, it makes perfect sense to me. I mean it basically comes right out and says its not Diabolic, but it easily can be used for evil evil things, which would taint the Magus.

What marko and Vares are trying to do is use the language that we have opposed to focus to apply to his summoning and commanding. (the language is the same: spellcasting and labwork).

IE he can summon and command might 80+ creatures because he is using 20 rego for realm, 20 vim for the commanding or summoning or binding with the lower one doubled for cthonic magic, and doubled again (effectively tripled) for focus.

As for power level: that puts him on par with 40-50 year out of apprenticeship if not more. His minions that he can summon and bind would challenge long term arch mages. (spirits with power 80 can do level 40-50 effects with 60-70 penetration.

A virtue applies to only one thing: if it applies to your hermetic spellcasting and lab totals, it is not going to apply to your summoning, binding and commanding. THose are three seperate areas.

Mmph, this got much bigger than expected, but whatever!

Erm most stuff, in fact I'd be ready to say 99% of stuff around 50+ might is a Daimon. Vort can summon up all the Daimons he wants, but at the end of the day, if they don't want to be there, they'll just yank their aspect back. You can't compel / bind an aspect of a Daimon... well you can, but again, it can just yank its aspect back. All you're gonna do is piss the thing off and it'll just come squish ya dead! X_x;;

Again with the Cthonic Magic, while Cthonic Magic in and of itself itsn't Infernal, getting that 'Extra Focus' is. The Infernal is known for its power / temptations and what have you, no? Well doesn't it make sense then that they offer you a chance to be just that much better at whatever it is? Ya know, at a cost... So yeah, sure he can get that 'Extra Focus' but it's going to taint his magic and lead him down the road of Diabolism.

It's just that y'all seem so fixated on Cthonic Magic and the 'Extra Foci' it gives him. Again, looking over everything, I think I've seen him use it once, so please stop talking about it as if it were a matter of fact that he was ALWAYS getting the bonus. Marko seems hell bent on getting him to use it more to attempt to corrupt him ( as using that extra focus IS an Infernal act, as stated before ) And If I remember correctly he had mentioned something about being willing to drop the focus portion if he could just keep the Infernal Realm affiliation as a minor virtue? That's quite acceptable to me, it would be just like, say Faerie Magic and that should help solve some of the issues?

Now as for a Magical Focus being only applied to one version of magic, no. It states nowhere in the Core Rulebook that a Focus only applies to a specific magical tradition and their arts. I mean that's why they call it a Magical Focus and not say a Hermetic Focus? Something along the lines of "Your Magic is much more potent in a fairly limited area"? Again, it says Magic, not Hermetic Magic. To me that seems to be a fairly important distinction. But this seems like something we'll just have to disagree on.

And from what I've read, Marko seems to agree with Vort and I on the rules, he just made his ruling due to the kvetching.

Now on to Power level! Again I disagree with you! As I said earlier, you're focused on his theoretical maximum, in reality, the highest Might spirit you'll probably see him toting around on a day to day basis is 40ish. Remember that bit about Daimons and Might 50+? If he wants to make a pact with a Daimon, he's going to have to blow a LOT of vis, especially if its for something a nebulous as follow me around and squish stuff k?! In all reality he'd make a pact with a Daimon to help him with a specific task in exchange for a very nice pay out. And you could easily take the same amount of Vis, snag a few buddies and ritual cast someone into oblivion. Same result, different methods? I mean hell, look at the numbers you can put out with group casting! They're flippin huge!

Lets break down the numbers really quickly here! We've established a few things:

  1. Ludo's practical cap for Spirits in 40ish. Anything higher takes Vis ( and a lot of it ). Also, regardless of how high Ludo can get his numbers, he's going to run into the problem of Daimons at Might 50+. As I stated earlier, Daimons = No Binding / Compeling etc due to their nature ( IE aspects ).

  2. Cthonic Magic in and of itself in not Diabolism ( This is RAW, it flat out says at much ). HOWEVER, using his 'extra focus' is. This would be why Ludo never uses it.

Now for the whole Power levels of Magi vs Spirits. With that in mind, lets look at the numbers.

Let's take a focused Flambeau who likes to make things dead. He has a 20 in both Creo and Ignem, a Magic Theory of 5 ( Specialty Creo, so 6 ) and a Penetration of 5 ( Specialty Creo ), A Major focus in Damage, Greater Potent Magic in Damage and a Stam of 2. He masters, say Ball of Abysmal Flame up to 4 with Penetration, Multi/Fast Cast and Flex to Sight. This guy casts his lovely Ball of Abysmal Flame. 20 Creo + 20 Ignem + 20 Foci + 12 Greater Potent Magic ( 6 Base + 6 MT ) + 4 Mastery + 2 Stam. Thats a total of 78, Ball of Abysmal Flame is a level 40 spell, so 78-40 is 38. Add + 6 Penetration and + 4 Mastery and you're sitting on 48 Penetration! And we didn't even factor in a dice roll! Oh yeah and he's doing that 5 times in a round. And you could easily make a character like this with 10-15 years out of Gauntlet. Sure, he's a one trick pony, by by G-d he does that trick really well!

Now lets look at a Might 40 Spirit Casting the same spell! First of all, it's going to cost him 4 Might points, so he's down to 36 Might. Granted he can spend Qualities to improve Penetration / Subtract Might cost, but realistically most spirits won't spend many, if any at all. But lets just say that he spent some points to reduce the might cost by 2 and penetration by.. 20. He's now blown a good 5 Qualities on one power and it's still not going to be anywhere close to a Magi. 40 - 20 ( 10 x Might Spent ) = 20 + 20 Penetration = 40. And he can only cast 1 per round! And remember it takes some time inside an appropriately strong Magical Aura to return Might Points...

Seems pretty clear who I'd want on my team! Ludo made a good point earlier. It's like Spont Magic, he gains a lot of versatility, but sacrifices penetration. Plus he has to be prepared for whatever is coming. If you can neutralize his spirits / catch em with his pants down as it were, he's going to be quite helpless. RUN AWAY!!! Comes to mind here. I mean honestly, Ludo's nothing a lil Perdo/Rego Vim can't fix!

I guess I just really don't see what the big deal is. Ludo is a really cool concept and his math adds up, so I don't have any issues with him.

As Fixer is gone, Octavian has made to leave once and might again, we are getting more and more that are focused on the power gamed aspects.

With my objections to the foci rules, I will go the way of the others that have the same dispute and disagreement. Ameline is not up the standards of power in killing, healing and battle that seems to be desired and will forever be falling behind further (since all her lab totals and study totals are halved). Ameline's spell botch didn't kill moe, instead it affected her and she vanished to be one with God or something of the sort. (maybe it caused her to look into the mirror and vanish considering her magic resistance is only 10 at the moment).

I will take my leave and leave the game to the power gamers.

Also after this adventure, Jehan will wander off just too unnerved by these happenings and it is too much like the diabolism that he fled from home and is in hiding from.

I hope this message finds those of you who remain doing well.

If the offer is still open to play then I would like to resubmit my concept later in July. I just moved from IL to KY and am on a bit of hiatus (no computer of my own, sleeping on an air mattress, all sorts of fun).

Take care.

But that's the way you designed her, deliberately and purposefully, knowing already full well what the game was all about.

No. I have already ruled on the botch and Moes life was saved. If you wish to leave in the middle of an adventure, Ameline becomes an NPC under my control.

I think it is ignoble to quit a game in mid-adventure just because of an argument that has been ruled in your favor. You are a more honorable and enlightened person than that.