General Table Talk

[The_Fixer]

And while I'm at it...

@Vortigern

I am at a loss and indeed feeling creatively drained over all of this. The end result for me is that it is draining away all of the fun from this game.

Now, you understand my feelings and why I left. This was useless and counter-productive.

@Vortigern

I am not someone who responds well to emotional vitriol/drama or bluster as a persuasive method. In fact it tends to make me react negatively.

As I answered the sodales who PMed me, I certainly didn't want to hold you hostage and use my departure as a way to force you or marko. If you'd made the effort to understand, I could have reconsidered, but I also knew you wouldn't.

@Vortigern

As to my being 'most engaged' not with story but with 'defending my character's depth and breadth of power' and/or referring to me in a personally insulting manner as if I am 'King of the Munchkins' and not in fact a story oriented person... it all in all makes it seem to me as if you are taking this debate ( or what should have been a debate ) out of the realm of discussing rules and facts and the game and into your emotional drama BS concerning how you 'feel' about the game, and personal attacks on myself.

Well, thing is:

Have these discussions been about your character concept? No
Have they been about your character's breadth and depth of power? Yes.

To be quick, character concept = story. Character power = munchkinism, whether you realize it or not.

@Vortigern

I've made consistent efforts to try and be diplomatic and indeed to try and get Dimir Taar/You involved with Ludovico, or indeed several other characters as well. This is clearly a part of my 'desire' to have Ludovico be doing his own thing and the centerpeice of his own plotline, and not viewing group interaction or group story as important.

And when you PMed me,didn't I answer you? I even took the time to do it in character in my first reply. So what's the problem?

@Vortigern

I've posited my position on all the rules issues here over and over again and not received anything much in the way of a real analysis or counterpoint to the examples in the RAW that I have put forth. Pretty much your argument ammounts to 'I don't like it.'. Which is fine. If you want to call a vote of the troupe and make or adjust house rules, feel free. It is your right as a troupe member. I just don't appreciatte your tone or insulting manner, or what seemed to me to be a disregard for the prior discussions on the matter.

The fact that you say something doesn't make it true.

But let's state it AGAIN, as both me and others have done time and time again

Major Magical Focus (Ars p 45) Your magic is much more potent in a fairly limited area, such as weather, necromancy, birds, or emotions. This area should be smaller than a single Art, but may be spread over several Arts (...) When you cast a spell or generate a Lab Total within your focus, add the lowest applicable Art score twice. If a spell has requisites, the lowest applicable score may be one of the requisites, rather than one of the primary Arts
How does any of this apply to you? From the fairly limited area (Since you use it for any te/fo combo), to the smaller than a single art (IIRC, Erik Dahl stated that the goetic arts shoud be Accelerated Abilities, it's just that these didn't exist at the time. Nut eevn considering these to be Arts, you're still out there, since you'd be encompassing 4 entire "arts"), to you casting a spell or generating a Lab Total, or even having a lowest applicable art?

Now, you've used Hedge Magic as an excuse, saying that any hermetic virtue is applicable to any non-hermetic tradition.
It could be argued that this is only true for Magic-Based powers, but let's that slip, as it's irrelevant and, for exemple, I could almost see a focus be applicable to Methods and Powers, holy or not (Note that these obey one of the common forms for arts, which is to be used in pairs to produce different effects based on the pair).

Yet, you've continually chosen to ignore what I was saying to you, namely HM p 12, Hermetic Virtues and Flaws: A hedge wizard who has the gift may (like any Gifted Character) be assigned Hermetic Virtues and Flaws during Character generation. A few make little sense to be assigned to some hedge wizards, so the storyguide should be consulted. For exemple, an Affinity with an Art is not suitable if the hedge tradition does not have hedge Arts. The traditions in this book indicate which Hermetic Virtues and Flaws are suitable for these hedge traditions.
Elementalists, which are very close (only weaker) to Goeticists, have no Focus in their list of suitable hermetic v/f, while other traditions (Which, IIRC, at least mostly follow the Focus rules) have them specifically listed.
You've stated that you find nothing that prohibits them to have a focus. Fine. This is your right, this may even be discussed by the troupe as a possibility (like the above focus for method and powers), but it's nothing else that your opinion, as the books make this very clear exception for them (probably because, due to the focus rules, this "makes little sense"). So please, don't say this is about my preferences, when this is all about yours.

You chose to ignore this. Fine. I no longer care. Really. Apply it all. Just don't make false claims.

@Vortigern

I did not imply that you 'agreed' to anything. Perhaps this is language barrier in action. I said we had discussed it before and I had felt/assumed that it was resolved. This is true. Whether you even remember the conversation, or felt it was even resolved at all on your end is something I can't speak for. I suppose there was a lack of resolution ( or perhaps merely lack of 'acceptable' resolution, by appearances ) on your end of things. There was no implication about a change of opinion on your part.

Yup, what I remember is a lack of resolution, save for the horses thingie, where marko admitted he should have been more vigilant.

@Vortigern

And ... we have covered, at length, that we view Ars Goetia and their 'taint' or indeed even power level in general vastly differently. Bringing that up over and over again doesn't seem to have acheived anything for either one of us. It is plain we are not going to convince each other. I just wish you could contain yourself and not resort to rudeness in an attempt to get your way. As I said previously, I rarely react well to such things. Today however I'm just feeling lacking in motivation to even attempt a more detailed or 'point by point' response.

You misunderstood me.

I agree that this is useless. This is what I stated, after all. Useless and endless. I think you'll agree that this is a waste of time, too, especially as I had so little to offer to andorra. I'd add a waste of energy.
Which is why I am leaving.
This is absolutely NOT an attempt to get things my way, although I feared you'd take it like that. I especially wouldn't like Marko to make a move and rule against you, not because he thinks that you're wrong, but to please me and/or keep me as a player. This'd be... well, wrong.