If everyone plays that way and everyone believes it is RAW, then is it even conceivable to you that you could be wrong or is your ego just to big for that?
It's pretty clear that you're not even reading what I'm writing.
In the first place, I didn't say that everyone plays it that way. I did say that it was a common house rule, but I didn't say it was universal. And in the second place, I did, in fact, say I get things wrong. I'm pretty sure I'm not wrong here though. And even if I were wrong, I wouldn't need to drop to name calling and invective to make my point.
FYI Johnathon, I do not "make" it personal, I perceive it as personal when you first insist I have asked to leave your game, then when I made it clear that I had not asked to do so you kicked me out, then follow me around in forums and games you are not even In with no apparent purpose than to offer criticism and generally try to get in the way. I'm sorry if you are so clueless that you have no idea what an epic jerk you are being, I certainly tried to point it out to you on the other board where you specifically stated you were pulling my chain for your own enjoyment. It is now and will be for the foreseeable future my instant assumption if you post a message in response to what I post or in a thread I have started that you will be posting, unless I can see a clear and evident exception, primarily for the purpose of being a jerk. You have made everything personal, generally while writing I a style where you attempt to not do so explicitly.
And yes, I am certain you are wrong here, others have pointed it out, including reading it as a literal rules lawyer. When everybody disagrees with you on something like this, you are, by definition, wrong.
For what it's worth, after reading the rules JL quoted I agree with him. It's pretty explicit that in order to get the adventure xp you HAVE to spend the entire rest of the season writing up what you learned, etc. That would mean you couldn't do anything else, even lab work.
So while the lab work section says you can do something that takes less than 10 days and still have a full lab total, the adventure xp section says it takes an entire season regardless of how long the actual adventure took.
So, it seems like you would have 2 choices when undergoing an adventure of 10 days or less:
- take the adventure xp and do nothing else significant that season since you have to record what happened; or
- Not take the adventure xp (but still get confidence and other rewards) and do your lab work and get exposure xp.
That is how I (now) interpret the RAW. I'd support a HR to change it to how I initially thought it worked, but not getting double xp in a season.
Yea, upon rereading the rules:
It's pretty clear that by the RAW, getting Adventure xp takes the whole season.
Like PoB and PB, I support a HR to alter that somewhat.
The thing is this:
- I asked about this before starting this adventure, and it was explicitly stated that we could do lab activities, but not gain experience from them in the same season we gained experience from an adventure.
- I have already pointed this out to Johnathon
- While that individual quote, especially without context gives that impression, it is certainly not the only way it can be read.
- Jonathon isn't even in this game, and only shows up apparently to satisfy his own ego in his belief that he is the ultimate authority on what is RAW.
Frankly this is as much about the fact that Jonathon simply annoys me in large part due to his past behavior, including situations where he has flat out stated that he does argue with me just to annoy me because he finds it amusing.
As to the argument itself, while it does say it takes all season, it does not say that no other activity is possible, or even that there is a penalty to lab totals. It all supports the idea that no other experience is possible. I certainly don't take it to mean that you must spend the entire season doing nothing but contemplating what you learned on your adventure, simply that you are "absorbing" that information while doing other things and cannot gain meaningful experience from those other activities.
No, you made it personal first, see my response to your second point below. I never said you asked to leave my game, I said I asked you to leave the game, and when you wouldn't voluntarily leave, I told you that you were out. You were unwilling to listen to any suggestions, and as I said in the invitation thread, it was going to be a heavily HR game. When I suggested you modify your teaching score a bit (because I knew something as the SG about an HR that was necessary but hadn't informed the players about) you really resisted. Hard. The entire troupe at the time pretty much had issue with your strong faerie blooded character being taken and abused by a Jerbiton and then finding a Bonisagus who just had him teach all the time. Perhaps I should have preserved the thread.
I'll admit, I started baiting you over there after you started coming on strong over here and had made it personal. As Darth Vader said, "All too easy." Of course, Luke escaped from that initial trap. Was my baiting you over there a jerk move? Yes. Am I sorry about it? Not particularly. You have made several jerk moves on me, an open attack in the Ars Magica forum here, and then publicly trashing my game in an invitation thread. I finally responded in kind. I'm not particularly proud of that, but in general, I'd had enough, since you are the one who was following me around and making disparaging comments before this thread even started. I would have left it alone if you'd let my comment to PoB stand as it was directed, to him. Or even said, I disagree, this is why you are wrong, instead of what you said as quoted below in my response to your 2nd point.
It wasn't personal until you made it personal. I was previously willing to put aside past disagreements and did let you come into Stealing the Future. You resisted every one of my requests to modify your character or adjust it to the circumstances of that game, which I had made expressly clear in the invitation thread was going to be heavily house ruled. You complained about my modifications to summae, because of the perceived impact it would have on your professor character, where the professor isn't really the focus of the saga, more flavoring.
I never spoke to what happened before. If it's a house rule, that is completely fine. But, I was speaking directly to Prince of Boredom who was making an assertion about RAW. At one point he was in PB's saga and we were doing the same thing with respect to lab work and adventure XP. I didn't want him to have a misconception as to what the RAW says.
I have already said that I wasn't even speaking to you. Several times. I didn't start out by name calling by facetiously saying I'm the end all and be all of how the game is supposed to be run. I responded by finding that funny, I found it genuinely amusing.
Well, what is the context of that quote? The contest is how you can earn experience in a season, the methods for earning experience. And it explicitly says that to earn adventure experience you must spend the season contemplating it. Does it mean,if one can do lab work in a season and receive adventure experience then one should also be able to read a book or be taught in the season when earning adventure experience? No. As those are other seasonal activities which players may choose, it is, to me, self-evident that you cannot do lab work in a season where you are contemplating your adventure, in essence practicing what you learned under pressure.
I show up from time to time, and have had Marko's permission to do so. I had, at one point, contemplated entering the saga, you can read about it in the Talia of Tytalus thread still here (I believe). My concept was much the same as in that other saga elsewhere, an Ignem score of 14 at gauntlet. It's not a hard and fast rule that Art scores shouldn't be higher than 10, but it was being enforced as such, and I didn't feel like arguing for it, especially since her score is effectively much lower than a 10 when you factor her Deficient Ignem into the equation.
You claim made it personal first, to me you had already made it personal a score or posts previously. That is hardly the point now. The point now is that it is personal, and will be every time you come traipsing along to pee on my parade. That applies here, and on the other side. My opinion of you is something I have to constantly restrain myself from posting. I have not made an issue of it when you have posted in the general forum here, but you came into my thread and started stirring things up about an issue that I had discussed openly before beginning this thread and a decision had been made. You could have commented then, in the general forum, I would not have felt personally affronted. You waited until after the game and posted in my thread.
You claim that you can accept that you are wrong about what is RAW, but I have yet to see evidence of that. It isn't a matter that I didn't read what you wrote, but rather that I don't believe you are honest with yourself or others about this issue.
Did I "resist" changes to my character? Yes, I liked my character. I also worked to compromise on those changes, and thought we were making progress when, from my POV you turned into a total asshat. I'm sure you didn't see it that way, asshats rarely do.
I am certainly not following you now, I am not trailing you making posts, because rankly I don't like the rage you inspire in me. I would like to avoid you completely, because I don't like feeling the need for physical violence- I have spent a large part of my life managing my temper. Yes I have let that temper escape into words on here in the past. Please stop poking the bear. I understand you have your own perspective on what has happened, you need to understand that having your own perspective does not make you right and others wrong.
Marko, feel free to delete all my posts.
I agree on both counts - this interpretation is correct and I'd be ok with the HR of spending your 10 'free' days in a lab season to gain adventure xp instead of exposure (provided it's not abused).
And at the risk of dipping a toe into something I really don't want to get in the middle of, could we all agree to use PMs for personal arguments rather than filling up the forum with it? The issue between Silveroak and Jonathan ceased to be something we all need to hear several posts back.
When I have used PMs with Jonathon in the past he went and re-sent them to all of his friends and basically kept it selectively private in order to drum up animosity towards me, so no, I cannot keep my dispute with him to PMs.
I disagree with that understanding of RAW, but whether it is about an understanding of the RAW or a house rule, I definitely support the idea of being able to finish up a lab without the XP for the seasonal activities while taking adventure experience. And honestly I think Rules As Played are probably more important than trying to argue out the Rules As Written.
Dude, let it lie.
Am I seriously not allowed to discuss things with my friends or other people? My last two missives regarding our antagonistic relationship have highlighted 1) my inability to not yank your chain and 2) the fact that I seem to enjoy it a bit too much. That's on me.
What is not on me is your desire to take this to open fora everywhere I am. The Ars Magica forum here, a game invitation forum promoting Marko's game over mine when you participated very little and resisted everything and I asked you to leave (of course you're going to enjoy a game you're playing in more than the one you were kicked out of) and then taking a disagreement here over to another forum and picking on the color of my character's skin, and when I copped to yanking your chain about the skin, you proceeded to call me a jerk, asshole and asshat.
Don't. Just stop. If you use PMs with me, yes, I may share them. If I send you PMs I don't care what you do with them.
No frownies! That is just how a hard workin' man lives his life.
What is amusing is that Silveroak is doing to Jonathan what Jonathan has himself done to me dozens of times.
And I am waiting for an angry PM or comeback to refute this claim :mrgreen:
Jonathan, you are welcome to comment and chirp and even to play. But please don't have fights with my players. Right or wrong, I don't care who started it. Nix, Nyahh, do not do it.
I will not delete other peoples post because I am vehemently opposed to censorship. I am not going to tell anyone I agree or disagree.
This is the deal. You can gain XP from one source. If that source took up less than ten days you can do lab work without penalty. If it takes more but less than thirty days, you take the lab penalty. This is the RAW as I read it and decided it should be. I will brook no disagreements nor will I tolerate any arguments disagreeing with me. Right or wrong, it is this way for I have said so.
'Nuff Said.
Which I don't dispute. Why would I do an angry PM or comeback? People can agree to disagree.
I will finish any fight started by another, period. Anywhere. You should respect and understand that. Whether it is a physical fight or a verbal one I will finish it one way or another. In this instance I did not start the fight, nor did I ever intend or expect for the comment about the RAW to turn into what it did.
With the exception being that "this" never involved calling you names.
If you' don't want to censor, may I suggest splitting the posts?
Yeah, but... 12 hour overnight shift? Ouchie. You get your system back in whack, y'hear?
Anyway. Mostly posting to note that I have an ongoing draft of Antoine's proposal to Isolde. That thread will progress soonish.
12 hour overnight shifts are the norm. Been working nightclubs for years. It is the 11am day shift that followed that threw me out of whack. Feeling fine now. Just needed extra sleep and a lot of food.
And no ouchie! We Spartans thrive on pain 
Thought I'd continue this conversation here. With that background spell mastery should be in your wheelhouse. I had a session last week where magus (Corpus specialist) was playing with a companion and a couple of other grogs. He has two mastered spells, Arm of the Infant with multiple casting and the ReHe spell that blocks arrows which I cannot recall the name of mastered for fast casting. We weren't a strong combat group going up against about 5 mercenaries and their dozen dogs who had been hunting folk witches under our protection. We found their camp early in the morning and I disable two of their weapon arms in one turn with arm of the infant. One makes his way to release the dogs and another grabs his bow. Next turn the guy with the bow fires at one of the grogs trying to kill the tied up grogs and I deflect the arrow with fast cast spell. And then I turn the guys arms who is closest to releasing the dogs into baby arms. Two others get into range and whack on the grog defending me delivering a medium wound. Then it comes back around toe and both their weapon arms go pudgy and I deflect another arrow. Eventually we make it through combat rescue some more folk witches before the dogs break free. We get away, eventually. But we would not have been able to do it without mastered spells. And he doesn't have Flawless Magic. Just one mastery ability is in reach for any spell with a season of practice.
Thanks for the example. Another reason I've avoided Spell Mastery is that I assumed using it effectively would require Flawless Magic, and therefore giving up things like Major Magical Focus and Flexible Formulaic Magic (my personal favorite). It's nice to see it doesn't always take a big pile of Mastery to significantly increase a spell's capabilities.
And after reading your example, I'm realizing it isn't just Spell Mastery that's my blind spot - it's Ars combat in general. I've only played in one other saga besides Andorra, and I'm the primary SG in that one with five players who are perpetual noobs (with Ars, not gaming in general). My early conclusion with Ars combat was that it's pretty brutal compared to other RPGs, so I've generally avoided it to avoid killing characters due to sheer ignorance of the system (mine and the players'). It helps that my group prefers low-combat, story-focused games anyway.
But all of this means I don't know much of anything about making a combat-capable magus. Now I'm in Andorra and I see Carmen annihilate a dragon in less than a round and I figure that's how combat magi work - either focus like crazy on mastering one destructive spell or just support the magi who do while trying not to die. The fact that Roberto is built along similar lines (to my untrained eye, anyway) reinforces that notion. I chose Pere's concept over that of a combat magus because I didn't want to just make a poor man's Roberto.
And Marko, none of that is intended as a complaint. I'm just explaining what I learned from watching you. 