Get me an angel

Way back in this thread: Lamech thought that a conflict with the Order of Suleman would be a difficult challenge for the Order of Hermes. One of his arguments was that using intellego mentem to examine the memories of spirits sent against the order was unreliable because memories could be altered with storytelling. This could be countered with quaesitor training mastery or by looking at spell traces to see if the target had been hit with the sort of magic that could alter memories.

However another point was that any such investigation would be fruitless against demons. The formidably of the limit of the infernal also popped up not too long ago in the thread about the power of intellego magi

It strikes me that developing counter measures against demonic trickery is among the more pressing needs that a magus might have.

Magic from the divine realm is not limited by the law of the infernal (I think I remember reading that some place). With a recent browse through the Order of Suleman chapter (which got me thinking about the subject) I recalled that it is pretty tough for the Sulemanic wizards to get their hands on angels. Spirit summoning is the only summoning art that seems to apply, as can the guardian angel virtue or Ars Notoria, not too much else except...

Hermetic magic could do it. If I'm a hermetic magus I'm probably aware that this road leads to hubris and sin, that it might not be the wisest choice especially if there are demons who might impersonate the angels. But I'd sure like to have it as an option.

So give me spells and plans for summoning an angel. What can magi do to get an AC to one? How can they find one? How can they get (compel/force) him or her to see to their needs in an emergency? (They'll have to do a fair bit of penance later but this might be a reasonable price to pay to get the angelic help/insight right now)

Anyone can call an angel, but will they come when you call?

That's the big problem: (RoP:D 21), angels are never required to answer a summons by non-divine magic (True Names may be an exception but this is unclear; this may be limited to divine magic). The other angels call Eiael a freak because he will answer a regular Hermetic summons, but he cannot be compelled. So you'll need a breakthrough to do this (while the Limit of the Divine is sacrosanct, one could argue that compelling an angel does not fall under that as such).

So the way I'd do it is precisely the opposite way you'd do it. Instead of hubristically calling down an angel and forcing him to serve, try bargaining. Eiael will drop by to chat if asked politely, and he might be able to point a covenant of generally-virtuous Hermetic magi in the direction of some other angels who are maverick enough that they'd be willing to work with them. But trying to force an angel to come is best left to Kabbalists, and using an angel in sinful magic is doomed to failure.

The Order of Hermes does not have the ability to cast spells through True Names, sad to say; this would be a Minor Breakthrough and could be integrated off Solomonic magic. If you integrate this and your SG approves, then you could use a specific spell with an integrated True Name to summon the angel you wanted. Getting the True Names of angels is probably easiest to do by barter; the Order of Geonim can get them for you and mobeds might have a couple of usable names lying around.

Oddly enough, my holy maga held the viewpoint that, per the Book of Genesis, the angels were commanded to bow to Adam, who was given stewardship over everything on the Earth; accordingly, there was nothing wrong or hubristic about a wizard calling angels to her service and compelling obedience. Of course, that's just the opinion of one maga-theologian, and her medium-term goal was to develop the chops to pull something like this off, so take it how you will.

They can use true names of demons and there are the synthemata mysteries as alternatives.

Still, having the angels able to say "no" makes it harder. Not that any sane magus would want to piss off an angel of even the smallest might but having power changes a discussion even if its use is not even brought up.

A range AC creo mentem spell to put a thought in the mind of the angel might be a reasonable alternative (even doing it blatantly i.e. pushing your issue into the mind of the angel and making them experience the thought that you'd really appreciate their input, rather than creating the emotional impulse to attend to you)

Hm, I stand corrected. In that case, you might be able to get True Names off the Geonim as stated above.

But as I said, you most certainly can summon an angel, they just don't have to respond unless they choose to. So the CrMe spell seems a bit superfluous; if the angel doesn't think the Order of Hermes is worth talking to, he won't come, and if he does, he'll answer the ReVi spell. Like I said, Eiael is the likeliest angel to do this, but he might be able to point you in the direction of other angels who might be up for assisting the Quaesitores.

The best countermeasure against demonic trickery in general, honestly, would be combining Sense Holiness and Unholiness with Invocation+Adjuration. If the Order finds itself facing serious enough problems with the infernal that they're willing to turn to Ex Miscellanea for help, I can see every Mazdean in the Order admitted as a Quaesitor and assigned to help sniff out demons. (Would they accept? If they refused, they'd have some explaining to do to their Guardian Angels. Fighting the power of Ahriman is the duty of every magos.)

If you can get an AC, then you could, if simple conversation weren't a better option, use posing the silent question (with intangible tunnel) to figure out what circumstances and treatment would be likely to succeed in getting the angel's help (which almost certainly wouldn't include repeated use of posing the silent question :frowning: ).

Or you could threaten with Angel's Eternal Oblivion if it won't obey your perfectly reasonable and humble requests. Angels may not fear to die, but they might fear to have their work left undone.

Acquiring a wing-feather of Michael and threatening it might work too, since Michael is both an angel and a saint.

I like this take. As a twist, Angels will obey as long as the request is made in... Adamic. Or maybe the summon Angel spell needs to be cast in Adamic (so on top of re-discovering Adamic, after that the mage needs to do integrate the language to be able to cast it).

As GM, if a character is able to take this long way, I believe he deserved to be rewarded. Probably on his way to his quest, he will learn enough about the will of God and probably will become more pious, possibly even getting True Faith. At the end, he might become the equivalent of Solomon.

Solomon commanded demons. This is pretty much moving in the most non-Solomonic direction possible mechanically. :laughing:

Other than that, that sounds like a very interesting way to nudge a character in that direction if their player wants to do that, though of course a big part of Ars Magica (especially as a magus) is breaking the establishments that non-Hermetics tend to consider rules, so I totally wouldn't oppose a character learning to summon/command Angels by learning [strike]Solomonic[/strike] Adamic without becoming more pious as long as their actions weren't directly sinful in nature.

So as I was drifting off last night I tried to find the section that said that angels were not limited by the limit of the infernal and I failed to do so. Is it even there?

It also occurred to me that an Angel's eternal Oblivion threat to some other angel might bring Seferial to the character to straighten out this mess, which could conceivably work in the character's favor.

Angels perceive things by "direct understanding of their surroundings" rather than by detecting species, this naturally allows them to see though all illusions without any magic at all (thus deftly avoiding the limit of the infernal because it is a limit of magic). Having a guardian angel (or any angel) around and then using intellego mentem to see what it sees is a way to see through any illusions all of the time (bring one along on to assist on your next trip to the regio of a powerful and deceptive faerie).

Apparently Ancient middle eastern demonologists particularly Zorasteran Magoi have collections of angelic true names. Jewish Kabbalists can discover new names using Merkavah. However having a true name can't get you around the Angel's "cannot be summoned or controlled by magic" issue. Zorasteran Magoi are described in RoP Divine as a hermetic group. Since the reference about Zorasteran magoi having angelic true names is also in the RoP: Divine book I imagine that they were referring to some hermetics having some angelic true name texts.

Their motives are completely good (the angel's motives that is, not the motives of my theoretical angel desiring magus/maga) so they will always act in a way that is morally correct according to their understanding. This bit of complete reliability might give the worried magus a way to attempt to get an angel to his side to assist with/solve his issues.

While angels cannot be summoned they can be trapped. so in extremes a crazed maga could trap one and bring it along with her. Sadly the typical hermetic ward would also block the Angel's ability to perceive beyond it so a different method of containment would need to be used if you wished your angel to be able to see through all illusions.

I realise I'm late to the party, but, per tC&tC, p. 97, Mobeds can Command, rather than Entreat, God's aid.
Mobeds also have access to the True Names of Angels (explicitly so, see the Major version of Knowledge of True Names, tC&tC, p. 93).

No, this doesn't explicitly state that Mobeds can summon and command angels - but it's pretty close, isn't it?

Well Merkavah is an exception to the angels cannot be summoned rule (It says so right where it tells us that angels can not be summoned (except by Merkavah). So I don't see a huge issue with another holy tradition in a later book also getting the ability.

So getting an AC (or pehaps a holy connection, a sort of realm specific AC that didn't make it in to the other realm books) via getting a true name is a possibility.

Are there others? Angels don't have bodies so a lot of the AC options are not available. If one could persuade an angel to craft an item that item would be an AC for a while and could be fixed to be a permanent AC. How does one inspire an angel to try their hand at pottery? Magic can not control angels, but could a creo mentem spell give them a huge desire to express themselves artistically? Make the angel want to create a painting for the people to remind them of the glory of the divine? Would this fall under the angels can not be compelled umbrella and fail automatically? If one used muto mentem to turn the mind of the angel into the mind of an artist would the resulting work be an AC to the angel?

For my money, the only AC (HC?) would under most circumstances be their True Names.

I'd say that you have a Holy Connection to your Guardian Angel if you have that virtue, and it'd be a piss-poor mobed who couldn't command their fravashi's aid.

Also, there's a Purity (or Merkavah)+Adjuration effect to create a Holy Connection.

I previously thought that the rule was "Invocation+Adjuration can command angels," which doesn't seem too unreasonable. Christianity also has a tradition of commanding God, such as by threatening saints (also, feel free to borrow Cecilia's theory, though Cecilia is a very heterodox theologian to say the least); I think even Islam has sects that might allow something like this, though Islam in general is kinda light on the holy magic.

I definitely think that a CrMe urge would be a magical compulsion. Per the system of mind in A&A, actually, I would just flat-out ban CrMe control over angels because angels don't have the five faculties; they are pure intellect, which is not subject to Mentem.

I see Muto Mentem as a possibility. Change the angel's mind into something that is likely to think in a way that accomplishes you magi's goals. This muto'd mind would still be immune to rego mentem control because it doesn't loose its angel nature.

If creo mentem is out as far as control, does that eliminate something like panic of the trembling heart from functioning?

While it isn't perfectly clear, I think Mentem effects in general won't work on angels because they have no faculties that can be affected. (Note that my theory contradicts RoP:D page 21 based on information from A&A.)

Angels' minds, near as I can tell, are pure intellect. I could be way off base on this, though.

There's an implicit discussion of what an angel can sense regarding the Infernal on RoP:D, pg. 20, right after the discussion of how angels can always perfectly understand their environment - "The only way to stop or hinder an angel from "sensing" something would be to entirely destroy the angel, or trap it in a powerful magic ward". So an Infernal power could disrupt an angel from discovering it - but only by shanking the angel beforehand, rather than by affecting its ability to comprehend something.

If your worry is Demons, it would seem to me that making magic items that put out Demon's Eternal Oblivion (voice or boundary, 24/7, one point of might a round, the rest going into penetration) would be a lot more effective then trying to summon an Angel, and hoping like crazy you didn't get a Demon........

Yes, you can use perdo vim to dispose of demons, but by use of an angel it is at least in theory possible to see through a demon's deceptions rather than just scaring it away / killing it. Also you can use intellego mentem to look into the mind of an angel or just speak with the angel for perspective. Angels also are universal translators and can travel anyplace without moving through the intervening points.

I'm not saying that it's a wise idea but it might be worth trying in an emergency.

Depending on your troupe, infernal things might be able to pass infernal deception. Summoning a demon to provide insurance that your future summonses aren't demons isn't necessarily an unworkable strategy. Food for thought.

I just can't imagine that Demons are not waiting to "be summoned as an Angel". Just the Hubris of the act of attempting it means you are a great candidate for Hell. Then there's all the good people and things that got destroyed because "the Angel told me they were DEMONS! I'm doing God's work here!!!".