Getting around parma

Is'n it actually stated somewhere in the core book? I thought it was mentaioned somewhere for healing spells (not rituals). I don't have the books here to check, though ...

Salvete
Widewitt

(p 113? That explains that Creo spells that "create" something can only target Individual or Group, so you can't "Creo Terram" a "room" worth of rocks or dirt. A healing spell does not fall into this restriction. Is that what you're thinking of?)

No, it doesn't work that way, but this is off topic. I'll start a new thread (here: viewtopic.php?f=4&t=7420 ) and this tangent can be discussed there.

d+5 is hardly a "mage killer", nor does it do "great harm". A disease is not an instant killer either, far from it. So I'm not sure what your argument is, here.

I know what the rules say, and said as much above. I have no problem with your interpretation of the RAW. But you're missing the point by only paying attention to that and ignoring the larger issue, that lies at the core of the game - The Order.

If it was that easy to get around Parma, magi would never have met peacefully, and The Order would never have been formed in the first place. So something more than just "what the rules say" has to be going on.

Because there is a Code, simply? Killing any magus is simple. Facing ten hoplites or the comrades avenging the death is not.

And since those indirect spell weren't known at the time of the Founders, but only a little later, it is an evolution which appeared when the Order already existed.

No. You are still missing the point.

Not because there is a Code, just the reverse. The Code is because there is a Parma - one that works.

Without an effective Parma, there would be no Order. Thus Parma has to work - and better than some narrow interpretations.

(If you still don't get it, sorry, I'm not able to explain it well enough, so you'll have to ask someone else. 3 strikes, I'm out.)

Cuchulainshound, I think you misunderstand ExarKun. Parma Magica doesn't need to be strong against Hermetic magic. It needs to be strong against non-Hermetic magic. Then we convince everyone to join and swear to the Code because we have a shield they can't handle because they don't have Hermetic magic. That Parma Magica is weak against Hermetic magic itself is irrelevant to the creation of the Code. Afterward it is the Code that holds you in check.

Chris

Callen uses better words than I could :slight_smile: :slight_smile:. He got exactly what I meant.

Mmm, I think I did, or at least I know what he wrote. Hermetic, non-Hermetic - what's the diff here?

If a low-level spell of any sort can slag a mage, then Parma isn't what it's described as. Non-Hermetic spells have an equiv in Hermetic terms - and so there's no diff "by the rules" - which is where he's coming from, by his own repeated statements. There was ample antagonism between magi who learned the system early on. (And I have a hard time believing that it took centuries to figure out the work-arounds .- if Bonisagus was a quarter the mage he's made out to be, he would have foreseen the problems. But there weren't any - so why should, how could there be now?)

I highly suggest looking at RoP:t, IHMRE, etc. You will find that their effects tend not to penetrate nearly as easily as Hermetic effects tend to. As for what the difference is, you're not using Hermetic magic until you join Bonisagus's Order of Hermes, so the whole convincing you to join thing and powerful defense you see is based on your non-Hermetic magic.

Consider Parma Magica 6 (professional level in an Ability) along with Form scores of 6 (a little above what is needed to train an apprentice). That's Magic Resistance of 36 and isn't so hard to achieve within 5-10 years of your gauntlet. How well can the other types of magic penetrate against this?

Chris

And pre-parma developing indirect attack spells was neither a priority (other mages didn't have significant magic resistance) nor easy (inventing spells without hermetic magic theory is hard work).
And the parma blocks the gift inspired spite - without the irrational dislike and distrust egging them on all the social and moral reasons that people don't murder each other despite being physically capable apply. (Most of the OoH are not PCs)