Getting rid of 4th Edition stuff

[silveroak]

See? The division does not work very well unless you oversimplify it. I just threw them all in the same realm (Legend realm). Some legend creatures care about humans, some do not and everybody is happy with it. No big issues, really. A triad of realms works pretty well and avois a lot of headaches about these details.

you and I have a very different understanding of works pretty well.

[talos402000]

Faeries have been neutered in the same sense as all of 5th edition has: it emphasizes crunch over story, and the story is what brought me to the game. Another way of saying this is 5th edition has less flavor than earlier editions. And Tim, I never said it sucked. In fact, I own every single 5th edition book, I wouldn't have bothered spending my hard earned cash otherwise.

[Timothy_Ferguson]

@silveroak

Many would argue that the Tuatha de Dannan are different from faeries. Some of those people still worship the Tuatha de Dannan. The idea of the Fomorians being the same as the Frost giants being the same as the titans is one I certainly agree with- historically speaking I would even throw the Nephelim/Grigori into that category (unless you want to consider the Grigori the same heneration as Tiamat and Apsu- a pair that doesn't find their way into mythologies after the Sumerian/Babylonian, and the idea of eating the children gets transferred to later generations (though Chronos does have a father listed the children eating does get pushed down a generation)
The other problem is that the platonic ideals associated with the magic realm were those of the Geni- Genies in the middle east, Genus in the west (as in Geni loci) which associated with the later generation of Gods instead of the titans/frost giants, etc, which were more primordial and associated with forces of nature, where the fringes of civilization and wilderness and faerie tend to be associated with each other, which means that from that perspective the fomor/frost giants etc should be faerie and the more modern deities magic, or as I suggested before, we really need more types of auras, and perhaps some rules as to how one aura might give rise to another, or possibly shift in signifigance (it seems to me that the aura of a nearly forgotten deity should be different from one who is actively worshiped...) but this would be getting into a major overhaul for 6th edition...

I don't really see how we could break the Tuatha de Dannan from Faerie. I mean, they are pretty much the core of the Celtic Twlight view of how faeries work. I've tried hard to kill the Celts Were Right view from earlier editions (that we should use their terms and see their interpretations as the base from which others are viewed as variants) but having said that, I can't quite see a way to divorce the Tuatha from faeries because the whole Irish folklore into English thing from the Victorian period seems to wedge them in there and taking them out would make things very difficult for new players, who mostly know faeries from that sort of material.

I'd like more realms. What do you suggest?

[BlackLiger]

I'd subaspect the existing realms, honestly.

So for the faeries you get the various pantheons
For magic you get the various raw forms of magic
for the divine you have the 3 big religions (Judaeism, Christianity, Islam)
for the infernal you have the types of sin.

[David_Chart]

@talos402000

Faeries have been neutered in the same sense as all of 5th edition has: it emphasizes crunch over story, and the story is what brought me to the game.

That's not how I see it -- which doesn't necessarily mean that you're wrong.

My intention is to emphasise giving troupes the tools and inspiration they need to create their own stories, rather than telling stories in the game books. I know that a lot of people love the metaplot of games, but I still feel that, if you want to tell a story, you should write a novel. The players should write the stories in a roleplaying game. Now, ArM has never been a metaplot-heavy game, but this could be part of what you are seeing.

It should be said that I see crunch as an important tool to give to troupes. Functioning crunch is very hard to create, so it's better to make it available, and let troupes ignore it if they want to. That does mean that there's a lot of crunch in ArM5 books, but I'd say that the last three releases have been all story and no crunch.

Can you be more specific?

@talos402000

Another way of saying this is 5th edition has less flavor than earlier editions.

It has less Demon-sauce than ArM3, but I think it has more flavours available than earlier editions. They are not ready-mixed, however.

@talos402000

And Tim, I never said it sucked. In fact, I own every single 5th edition book, I wouldn't have bothered spending my hard earned cash otherwise.

Thank you!

[Tellus]

@David Chart

My intention is to emphasise giving troupes the tools and inspiration they need to create their own stories, rather than telling stories in the game books. I know that a lot of people love the metaplot of games, but I still feel that, if you want to tell a story, you should write a novel. The players should write the stories in a roleplaying game. Now, ArM has never been a metaplot-heavy game, but this could be part of what you are seeing.

Thank you for this!

It should be said that I see crunch as an important tool to give to troupes. Functioning crunch is very hard to create, so it's better to make it available, and let troupes ignore it if they want to. That does mean that there's a lot of crunch in ArM5 books, but I'd say that the last three releases have been all story and no crunch.

Amen (as they say).

[silveroak]

I'd have a primordial realm- the stuff of creation, heavily laden with dragons and monsters from the most primitive recesses of history.
I'd have a Vedic realm- a realm of giants, titans, and ancient and nearly forgotten gods.
I would have a realm of the dead. Valhalla or a realm of warriors may be included or a separate realm
Infernal, as demons exist through all cultures.
A realm of the fallen but not-so-forgotten Gods
A realm of the Genie/Genus- platonic ideals and remote spirits
A realm of faerie, which are not pale reflections of tales which are told but a race without death in a realm of eternal and often savage games, where death can be a temporary inconvenience or all too real.
A realm of fable, because I want to use the faerie rules from 5th edition somewhere.

I would actually not have a divine realm. Let theologians claim it is too far removed for man to access. Divine entities (saints and angels) should be rare, and the power of some churchmen undeniable, but I would eliminate divine auras as well, either the whole of the earth belongs to he who created it. Though non believers might have other explanations. Faith of course should exist, and be usable anywhere.